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Comment by bradleyjg | Hacker News Reader

Sex coach and educator Violet Turning, 24, also points out the “fetishisation” of two women having sex or making out, specifically under the male gaze. It’s made same-sexual attraction between women more socially acceptable, albeit for the wrong reasons. Meanwhile, people seem to find notions of two men having sex far less palatable. A 2019 study that looked at attitudes toward gay men and women in 23 countries found, across the board, that “gay men are disliked more than lesbian women”.

It can’t be that heterosexual men are more tolerant and accepting of bisexual women than heterosexual women are of bisexual men. Instead it has to be bad “fetishisation” that just happens to have some positive side effects because heterosexual men are not allowed to have any positive qualities.

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This quote from the article speaks to that:

> “Progress has really been made around the female gender role and less around the male gender role,” says Massey.

I think this is a consequence of there being a female-focussed feminist movement, but not an equivalent movement focussed around male empowerment. It means that analyses like these are typically done from a female perspective with all the usual implicit biases that come from that.

I think it is more base than this. I believe it is that males with higher testosterone appear to focus on s3x more often than other groups; and they on the whole like girls.

Well, there are male empowerment movements. Have a look at the documentary The Red Pill by Cassie Jaye.

It's really disingenuous of the article to not look in the mirror and acknowledge what is happening.

What happens when males are the default oppressor, masculinity deemed toxic and male empowerment movements are actively boycotted?

As a man, I certainly don't think masculinity is toxic (although of course it can be in extreme forms, like anything). Male empowerment movements on the other hand I have found to be incredibly toxic in practice. There are definitely pockets that aren't, but those seem to be few and far between.

What's frustrating is that the term "toxic masculinity" describes something very real. Unfocused masculine energy can drive very negative behavior, from hypersexuality to aggression to the desire of dominance and extreme novelty seeking. But describing it under the term "toxic masculinity" destroys conversation because of the implication that all masculinity is bad, which is just not the case.

It's much like talking about "neurotic feminity." There's something to it, but it's not a good way to frame it.

> But describing it under the term "toxic masculinity" destroys conversation because of the implication that all masculinity is bad, which is just not the case.

Except "toxic masculinity" is a simple phrase that clearly and unambiguously describes a subset of masculinity as having the trait of toxicity, in the same way "red paint" doesn't refer to all paint, but a subset of paint that is red. If I describe a "toxic mushroom," do you think I'm claiming all mushrooms are toxic? No, it's obvious I'm making a distinction there between toxic and non-toxic mushrooms.

Yet even when the actual definition of toxic masculinity is pointed out to critics, they will often refuse to accept it and insist that it refers to all masculinity regardless of what anyone or any source says. They know what the real definition is, and they don't care.

The term or its framing isn't the problem, the problem is the consistent bad-faith interpretation of feminism and its arguments.

> insist that it refers to all masculinity

That's how the phrase gets used in practice, though. You never see any feminists acknowledge masculinity at all, other than to immediately describe it as "toxic", in the very same sentence.

>You never see any feminists acknowledge masculinity at all, other than to immediately describe it as "toxic", in the very same sentence.

In practice plenty of feminist dialogue uses the phrase properly, with far more nuance than your hyperbole allows. But when feminists do acknowledge positive masculinity, men just consider it an attempt to emasculate and control them.

No matter what feminists say or do, men will often lean into the worst possible interpretation. There's just no winning.

Language really matters and changes over time. The term "moron" shifted to "retard," then to "mentally disabled." These shifts occurred because the vernacular use of the term became drastically different from the technical term. They became loaded with negative connotations.

The same has occurred with both feminism and toxic masculinity. While the technical terms may be narrow and egalitarian in goal, the vernacular usage has shifted their de facto definitions to be "female empowerment" and "masculinity is bad." You can fight this all you want, but I personally think it would be a better move to just find a new term for the technical definition of "toxic masculinity," because as I mentioned above, it does reference something real that needs to be addressed.

To be honest, I think an altogether new word that isn't a linguistic compound[1] and is narrowly defined as the negative aspects of stereotypically masculine behavior would be the best way to avoid miscommunication.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_%28linguistics%29?wpr...

>To be honest, I think an altogether new word that isn't a linguistic compound[1] and is narrowly defined as the negative aspects of stereotypically masculine behavior would be the best way to avoid miscommunication.

I don't think it would avoid anything. It would just reinforce the belief that the original term was nothing but a slur against masculinity as a whole, and then the new term would be attacked as well.

After all, it would take far less effort to simply accept that the "technical" definition of "toxic masculinity" exists and is used within feminist critique, and recognize that distinction, than it would to create an entirely new term and have it bubble up through culture. That almost no one seems willing to even assume that modicum of good faith suggests it doesn't matter what terms you use, the premise will be rejected anyway.

> It would just reinforce the belief that the original term was nothing but a slur against masculinity as a whole

That's how people use it, and that's how it's interpreted by normal people.

> That almost no one seems willing to even assume that modicum of good faith suggests it doesn't matter what terms you use, the premise will be rejected anyway.

When dealing with large groups of people, pragmatism runs paces around accuracy. I really do understand what you're saying, but trying to change pedestrian interpretations of words with multiple legitimate interpretations is like yelling into the wind. The pragmatic choice would be to change the language so that people stop arguing about the language and focus instead on the core concept.

If you are a domain expert talking with domain experts, then jargon is good and makes communication more efficient. When dealing with everyday people, it gets more difficult.

> Except "toxic masculinity" is a simple phrase that clearly and unambiguously describes a subset of masculinity as having the trait of toxicity

No, it absolutely comes across as trying to describe all masculinity and people who say that it's clearly only describing a subset of masculinity always come across like they are trying to rationalize away how it sounds.

>I think this is a consequence of there being a female-focussed feminist movement, but not an equivalent movement focussed around male empowerment.

There is an equivalent movement for males. Unfortunately it's been entirely co-opted by red-pillers and incels, and rejects feminism and its arguments categorically.

Yes. I guess I don't really consider those an equivalent, but something else entirely. While feminism is all about self-reflection and questioning traditional narratives, these movements seem to be mostly about doubling down on them.

They're not equivalent, but there is no equivalent movement among males of any significance that I'm aware of.

edit: I just realized between those comments I said the modern men' rights movement is both equivalent and not equivalent to modern feminism. What I mean is, they're equivalent in the way apples and oranges are both equivalent as fruits. They fill the same roles but are otherwise entirely different.

And it's ironic, because the mens' rights movement coined the term "toxic masculinity," and it has its roots in traditional masculine/chivalrous ideals and teachings, but now modern MRAs consider it to be nothing but a slur. It's like masculine culture becomes more defensive the further feminism encroaches into its traditional domain.

> there is no equivalent movement among males of any significance that I'm aware of

Indeed. That was very much my original point. I've thought about trying to start one. But the prospect is rather daunting considering that unless done very carefully, it could well end of offending both feminists and MRAs. Which could lead to some... interesting experiences.

The male movements certainly questions traditional narratives such as "men should die for the sake of society" or "men should do all the dangerous work and provide for women" or "men are dangerous and needs to be punished to behave" or "men aren't allowed to have feelings" etc.

Note that feminists mostly encourage many of those traditional gender roles, which is why male movements needs to go against feminism. For example when men opens up about problems women screams out about all the "emotional labour" they now have to do, they don't want men to open up they just say they do to look good and those women are the main reason men actually aren't opening up.

However, one thing here, many male movements has given up on actually fixing the problem and instead focusing on what the individual can do. So instead of trying to fix women, they just accept that women will never see them as humans and work around that. Which is why you get MGTOW, the incels, the dating players etc.

Edit: Also note where we put the blame here. When women creates groups encouraging each other to lose weight and become anorectic, do we blame that group? No, somehow we blame men who wants women to not be fat. However when men creates groups trying to adapt to the insane ideals women puts on them we call it toxic masculinity and blame men anyway.

I do consider them equivalent. contemporary feminism, mainstream feminism. The feminism that gets to dictate laws or is paraded by corporations is as man hating as incels are of women. the only difference is that hating men is palatable(or at least degrees of magnitude easier to brush aside and forgive) for society.

> I think this is a consequence of there being a female-focussed feminist movement, but not an equivalent movement focussed around male empowerment. It means that analyses like these are typically done from a female perspective with all the usual implicit biases that come from that.

Yes, in the last few decades we started to see some efforts to create this missing male empowerment movement, but they all seem to end up embracing and heavily leaning on traditional gender roles instead of fighting it. Initially the various efforts seem to run the gamut from conservative reactionary movements to liberal transformative, but as they grow, the more liberal ones seem to always evolve towards a more traditional conservative view.

Could it be that traditional gender roles are socially adaptive and comfortable for the majority of men - and for that matter, also for many women who don't necessarily identify with modern social movements? There seems to be an undercurrent of de-humanization in wanting to uncritically jettison such a key part of the lived experience, and one that's even so deeply linked to our very biological makeup as living beings. If so, it makes sense that we'd be seeing some pushback.

> Could it be that traditional gender roles are socially adaptive and comfortable for the majority of men - and for that matter, also for many women

I think so. But the key word there is majority. I think it might well be a majority, but I don't think it's anything like an overwhelming one (ie.. more like 60% than 99%). That still leaves an awful lot of people for who this organisation doesn't work particularly well.

Women's liberation over the 20th century also shows us that it's very much not a binary thing. Many modern women will embrace femininity when they're dressing up to go out, but also appreciate and take full advantage of the option to wear trousers and adopt more traditionally masculine attitudes when working of exercising.

As someone who doesn't have any inclination towards traditional gender roles, I somewhat question the idea that they are linked to our biological makeup. Or at least, I think it needs to be recognised that it is not as simple as men having one set of inclinations and women another. And I think it's quite important that society recognises this and gives people the flexibility to do as they want to not as their gender roles tell them they should do.

> Or at least, I think it needs to be recognised that it is not as simple as men having one set of inclinations and women another.

Of course there's a lot of variance in how these gender roles might play out individually. Where I see some potential issues and pushback is largely with the common tendency in these movements, of wanting to throw out gender roles altogether. Again, a key majority of people would find this dehumanizing, not freedom-affirming, Many people want to be told what they might comfortably be expected to do, even if they would ultimately also want the right to choose differently. This is just as true for gender roles as for the many other ways of providing some common shared structure to our actions as we conduct ourselves and relate to others.

> Many people want to be told what they might comfortably be expected to do

Sounds like Queer Liberation is for you! This is very common, and there are very traditional roles for this in my community. I know plenty of ladies who will tell their partners what they are comfortably expected to do. It's a high consent environment, so you still ultimately have the right to choose differently.

"Queer liberation" is perhaps one of the best examples of how many activists are choosing to focus on what's 'strange' and 'peculiar' socially (hence, 'queer') over what's mainstream. Why should we care to emphasize the queer so much when that means making what common and thus not queer socially marginalized?

I think there’s an unwillingness on the part of feminists to acknowledge that women as a group play a huge role in defining masculinity, even though they critique men’s role in defining femininity.

I’m not saying it’s entirely on women but it shouldn’t be controversial to say that women have a role to play, including as expressed by who they choose to be with romantically.

The choice of who to be with romantically is often dependent on some sort of sexual attraction, which is notoriously hard to change. This goes for both men and women obviously.

Supposing for the sake of argument that’s true, at the very least it should be acknowledged that women’s sexual preferences play an important role in shaping masculinity instead of repeatedly claiming lack of change is entirely on men stubbornly refusing to adopt new norms out of pique.

That does not seem to get in the way of complaining about "unrealistic beauty standards", or that "culture" dictates what we find attractive: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/when-food-is-family/...

> It can’t be that heterosexual men are more tolerant and accepting of bisexual women than heterosexual women are of bisexual men.

Granted I'm basing this solely on my experience having grown up a heterosexual man, but that explanation seems absurd. By and large, it has not been the women who have been intolerant of homosexual men, but rather other men.

> By and large, it has not been the women who have been intolerant of homosexual men, but rather other men.

What evidence do you base this on? Women's attitudes have a big effect on social norms, so we certainly can't dismiss them out of hand. And women who seem to have negative attitudes towards male homosexuals obviously exist.

I didn’t say homosexual men, I said bisexual men.

Which is more common in your experience: men that won’t date bisexual women or women that won’t date bisexual men?

By and large, it has not been the women who have been intolerant of homosexual men

I've known several straight women who absolutely refuse to date bisexual men, or any man that has shown any bisexual tendencies.

I don't know any guys who would refuse to date a woman just because she's had sex with a woman at some point in the past.

I was a try-hard hipster in my 20s who, owing to poor socialization as a child, didn't understand that there's a big difference b/t what people say there virtue and ideology is, and what they actually do, and more importantly, how they broker that difference: your description absolutely matches my experience.

Enough women either refuse to date bisexual men or say things like "Well, maybe if they like girls more than boys". I met a bi independent brand designer in Portland whom relayed rather humorous stories of liberal, straight women's discomfort with his bisexuality.

Then there's the sect of women who'll suggest a man is gay as a insult, but when rebuked will play a rhetorical game like "What's wrong with being gay?"

I once went on a date with a data scientist and when I told her I was interested in getting a cat, either to be provocative or accidently revealing herself, she loudly proclaimed "That's gaaaaay" in the middle of a restaurent. When I confronted her the next day about this statement, she said things like "I have gay friends", etc.

This notion that liberal women are absolutely receptive to queer men or anything they perceive as effeminate in men has real limits that are not actively investigated, and it has nothing to do with a subjectifying male gaze.

There’s certainly something here, but I agree the framing as if fetishization were the cause is a real stretch.

Women are the “fairer sex” as they say. Maybe that’s a cultural phenomenon as well, but seems like a better culprit in this case.

A survey of Americans found only 10% more men said they would be comfortable with a bisexual partner.[1] And heterosexual men aren't more accepting of homosexuality or bisexuality generally.

[1] https://today.yougov.com/topics/relationships/articles-repor...

That’s a thousand basis points, not 10%. It’s 36% more men than women. Unfortunately they don’t have cross tabs, but given the strong falloff starting at baby boomers I wouldn’t be surprised if the differential was even larger if you limit the population to GenX and below.

A basis point is defined as 0.01%. And it isn't used commonly outside finance.

I think I stated it how most people would. To be clear it was 38% of men and 28% of women. The ratio says much less about the world than how low both numbers are.

Older people are more likely to say bisexual men are gay and in denial. Or all men who have sex with men are less masculine. Those stereotypes are more common than equivalent stereotypes about bisexual women. I would be surprised if their relationship preferences didn't reflect that. And those stereotypes illustrate how acceptance isn't just about intimate relationships too.

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