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This is what's so strange about US. There are laws with very hefty fines about false advertising, especially when human life and health is involved, this is true for EU and most other locations. Try to remember how much VW paid for their diesel emission scam. It was almost 3 billion dollars. And Tesla...

Also remember that GM paid a fraction of that for the ignition switch scandal [0] where GM management intentionally hid the issue which directly lead to at least 120 deaths, and that was just the official count.

The US has little interest in hitting home companies in any way. Preventing the false advertising would impact the value of Tesla because the FSD claims were an integral part of Tesla's branding and success. Some countries in Europa, like Germany, blocked Tesla from using misleading claims in their advertising like suggesting anything about self driving [1]. Of course this is usually dismissed as Germany protecting its auto industry. But the reality is that the claims Tesla made consistently misleading and made to suggest the cars is able to self-drive and it's only regulations that prevent it from doing this.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch...

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/business/tesla-autopilot-...

I feel that there's almost 'Protect Tesla at any cost' order, even though there clearly isn't one. I have this heavy feeling that should Tesla crash and burn, this is going to be a major hit not only for Nasdaq or S&P, it can lead to major disillusionment with what tech sector really is and what it can and can not do for humanity in general and for US as a country specifically.

It's a very valuable company that's just taken off and for the first time in a long time gives the US an edge in the global auto industry. Shooting it in the wing now, even if it's the legal duty, gives everyone else an advantage. So blind eye it is.

Tesla has no reason to crash and burn but without a real or perceived edge over the competition it wouldn't thrive. And the self driving claim is a hefty part of that edge.

Yeah, but this is a very US-centric view. China is (arguably) far ahead of US both in EV technology in general and Tesla specifically. It's hard to separate personality cult of Elon Musk from Tesla, but for many outside US, there's absolutely nothing special about Tesla except for the valuation part.

I am completely oblivious as to how Tesla is seen in China. But plenty of the hype Tesla generated in Europe some years ago had FSD as a backbone (maybe a bit of ludicrous mode too), it was an easy way to cover generic EV drawbacks. I'm not saying that this is why people bought Teslas, rather that that's the reason people spoke about Teslas. If everywhere you look you see a discussion about how awesome one feature of a product is you're slowly and unconsciously going to start assuming the whole package must be awesome.

Tesla not only got "infinite" marketing and PR points by claiming "FSD", they even got money from people who are still waiting for that functionality. Those who expected driver assists are happy. Those who expected the claimed FSD are certainly not.

Today with competing companies like Volvo announcing L4 cars in 2022, the generic FSD claims are nowhere nearly as valuable as a few years ago.

> It's a very valuable company that's just taken off and for the first time in a long time gives the US an edge in the global auto industry. Shooting it in the wing now, even if it's the legal duty, gives everyone else an advantage. So blind eye it is.

Reminds me of Wirecard, which imploded one year ago. Everyone, from regulation agencies over banks to politics - including Chancellor Merkel and her advisors - wanted Wirecard to succeed at all costs. In the latest hours of Wirecard, after the "we're missing two billion euros" statement, there even was the idea to pump hundreds of millions of euros taxpayer money to prevent its collapse.

The principle of defending your superstars applies everywhere, albeit the US is doing it to a far greater degree compared to others simply because they're in a better position to do it.

But Tesla and Wirecard are in no way in the same league. Tesla is actually delivering cars, batteries, building factories, and developing tech. Wirecard on the other hand was a hot air balloon, at least after a point.

Having looked at a lot of the issues surrounding Tesla, I would strongly disagree with that statement. I think it's mostly informed by hindsight. While it remains speculative it is certainly possible that Tesla is in the same league as Wirecard, and maybe Enron.

People are easily thrown off by the fact that Tesla is successfully delivering a physical product and that the product is excellent in many aspects (driving UX, charger network, software integration, EV evangelism etc).

However once you look closer, a whole host of parallels emerge: 'Very aggressive accounting' (non-GAAP, 20% accounts receivables, junior CFO, warranty repairs as goodwill etc), business is not profitable (revenues stem from tax credits not cars), bail out/enrichment of Musk family (SolarCity), securities fraud (funding secured), retaliation against whistleblowers, silencing/threatening critics and journalists, legal record, occupational health violations (injured workers not being treated, Covid), workers at the factories not being allowed to speak to visitors, selling something that doesn't exist (FSD), environmental concerns at Fremont, ...

It's a different business than Wirecard for sure, and only time will tell, but the red flags are all there.

> I think it's mostly informed by hindsight

Well... yes, simply because hindsight usually provides evidence while foresight provides guidance. So while I agree with your points, and as much as I dislike Musk (a criminal who's crimes are overlooked because of his status), your case pivots on the assumption that they're certainly faking it, just weren't caught yet. And you could be right. But so could Scientology.

The fact that Tesla is delivering what we can easily verify with our eyes at the very least puts them in a vastly different league from Wirecard. Tesla could be a unprofitable business like so many others. But Wirecard wasn't just a failing business, it was massive scale fraud and nothing it left behind still proves useful and can provide value now.

That is simply not true. The majority of Wirecard has been sold in the insolvency proceedings, e.g. the payments platform is still in use today! (Interestingly still using the domain wirecard.de!)

The liquidation price was nowhere near its market value and their technology was nowhere near as innovative - both points that are also true for Tesla.

Again, don't be led astray by the fact that Tesla is making physical products that you can see.

On a different note I don't think of corporate fraud as something that brings you from 0 to 1 - it's more akin to cheating in sports. It will give you a competitive edge, an unfair advantage.

If you are interested there is an interview with the CFO of Enron about legal fraud on Youtube - highly fascinating.

> retaliation against whistleblowers, silencing/threatening critics and journalists, legal record, occupational health violations (injured workers not being treated, Covid), workers at the factories not being allowed to speak to visitors, [...] environmental concerns at Fremont

Unfortunately, these issues - while perfectly legitimate to name them! - are extremely common throughout the entire US corporate and government culture. Exploitation of all kinds is pervasive.

Tesla may be delivering cars and other physical properties but that doesn't make them immune to fraud, be it from customers or investors. This is a $500 billion company that has made some hefty promises toward both groups that it has repeatedly fallen short on.

The behavior of the investors in Tesla is extremely scary. Tesla bulls have organized some large intimidation campaigns against anyone whose tried to question why this company is worth $500 billion.

Oh yes. People are still drinking the self driving kool aid. My father paid for self driving option in UK on a model S. three years ago. For three years it’s “any day now” he tells me regularly.

I’m not sure what he’s doing now but he was muttering something about having to pay for a hardware upgrade which will bring it closer.

He’s either going to drop dead or we will develop cold fusion reactors first.

> or we will develop cold fusion reactors first.

Both "fusor" and "muon-catalyzed fusion" are 'cold' fusion techniques, and although the energy returns are 'abysmal' and 'bad' respectively, they are both real-life fusion techniques that do not rely on the conventional high-temperature high-pressure reactors.

I watched a video of a German Tesla driver trying the auto pilot in a German city. If he hadn’t intervened it would’ve crashed into stationary cars parked on the side of the road, and on the second occasion it went straight ahead into a roundabout without slowing down at all. It’s insane how this is just treated as “Well, it’s a preview”. People are having almost-crashes because they rely on it in false belief that it is ready (because it’s always “close to public release”).

I agree that they over-promise, etc.

On the other hand, if it's a scam, Tesla owners should feel scammed.

But as far as I can tell, Tesla owners are absolutely loving the car, even with the many small defects.

Still seems that even though the car doesn't reach the marketing message, it still is one of the best on the market.

As a Tesla owner I've grown pretty bitter with the car after 2 years. For $40k my auto wipers don't even work, Spotify playback is buggy, and I'm stuck with Tesla's shitty navigation instead of a sane alternative like Waze. I don't even have waypoints for planning trips, which are especially important for electric cars. In his hubris, Elon has outright rejected CarPlay - while doing absolutely nothing to improve the built in software.

Tesla's stated range on the website is basically a complete lie. I can only safely budget ~160 miles, even though my SR+ was sold advertising ~240 miles. The interior quality is pretty terrible for the price and I have to pay Tesla to enable rear seat heating which my $40k car already has installed.

I think Tesla will lose a not-insignificant amount of current owners when it's time to upgrade. A lot of us are sick of Tesla spending finances on adding worthless videogames when there are still serious shortcomings with the software. I am personally waiting for prices on the Audi e-tron GT to come down a bit, or for Porsche to release an electrified 718. The only issue is charging infrastructure, which Tesla absolutely dominates.

If you watch the plaid launch they apparently finally added waypoints (and self joked about how that took so long) and a redesign of the UI. But unclear which models that will integrate back to or when.

I mean I've heard the infotainment system on Teslas is closer to a cheap Android tablet glued to a car than a computer, kinda like a lot of smart TVs are. True or no? I've heard it has some performance issues.

The infotainment is the most responsive car industry - zero lag or stuttering, basically like an iPad. Unfortunately it is held back by buggy software and missing features.

This could be remedied by Tesla allowing CarPlay or Android Auto, but Elon has said that won't be happening.

Coming from a higher end Subaru… the Tesla system is a god send. I have complaints with my model Y, but that doesn’t even register (autopilot on the other hand, definitely tops the list).

A bunch of sunk cost fallacy together with the fact that many Tesla owners are painfully un-educated about the state of the car market.

For a large portion of owners, their Tesla is the first car they've ever bought in the price class, maybe even the first car they've ever bought new. If the sum of your experience with cars only covers years-old ~$20k cars, and not similarly priced new sport/luxury ICE cars, you will be absolutely thrilled by all the tech in your Tesla, thinking it's unique and fantastic and the best car on the market.

I am the owner of a 100k mile Tesla Model S.

In its lifetime, I have had to replace the replace the main screen and dash twice due to yellowing and delamination. I am about to have to take it in for a third.

I have replaced the MCU once due to an unexplained malfunction, and am about to go in for a second replacement due to a recall.

On an average summer day, the car loses about 3-4 miles of charge parked in a garage. On exposed pavement, closer to 10 miles a day.

The interior (spartan and cheaply constructed as it is) has steadily developed a variety of squeaks and rattles and the road noise at 60mph+ is very loud.

The car can accelerate quickly but handling is not on par with even the most basic sports cars.

In my opinion, Tesla cars are best in the market for one thing and that's straight line acceleration. For everything else you might value in a luxury/performance car, Tesla is pretty subpar.

Typically people being scammed don’t feel like they are being scammed.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021/2022-tesl...

So Model S Plaid can do 0-60 in 1.98s provided sticky VHT substance on the track. Same stuff used for other drag racers, super- and hypercars to get the required road friction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PJ1_TrackBite

Without VHT:

"Once ready and in its cheetah stance, the Model S Plaid's launch is drama-free, even without the added advantage of VHT. The electric car accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in just 2.07 seconds, more than 0.2 second quicker than our previous record holder."

Based on this, what NorwegianDude suggested that it doesn't come even near to that acceleration is just false.

Engineering Explained did a good video on this, specifically mentioning rollout:

> […] No, Tesla's Model S Plaid won't hit 60 mph in under 2 seconds. In this video we'll discuss rollout, Tesla's actual 0-60 time, 0-60 theory, and what today's theoretical limit on 0-60 mph is. Watch to learn more!

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7yigpPSu_o