Hacker News Reader

Comment by soperj | Hacker News Reader

Another one is that clip in pedals make you faster.

Do you have a source? Anecdotally I've found clipless to make my power transfer more efficient. Some quick googling shows this seems to be true:

"Mean power output was higher using clipless pedals ( = 617 watts, SD = 112) than toe-strap ( = 572 watts, SD = 77), and flat ( = 566 watts, SD = 83)." [1]

[1] https://scholars.fhsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1118&c...

I was a life long flat pedal rider.

Started working at a bike shop during college and one of the first things roadies told me was they are indeed much more efficient because you can push AND pull on your pedals - generating a lot more power and making the ability to sustain that power a lot easier.

I think this is a myth - you don’t pull on your pedals to make you more efficient, I think it’s the fact you are not continuously having to adjust your feet as you would on flat pedals.

See https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/fitness-and-training/stop-p... for instance.

a better way to say what you might be saying is, "without locking your feet to the pedal, you expend significant energy with lateral muscle movements to keep your feet on the pedals"

One issue I have with that bikeradar article is this quote:

>Undertake your next few leg-speed intervals at the same cadence (such as 105rpm), but aim to remain more firmly planted in the saddle, with your pelvis acting as a foundation for your legs. This will allow you to maintain chain tension through the entire stroke, eliminating the ‘thud’ through the top and bottom of the stroke (the ‘dead zones’) as your chain loses contact with the freehub

Anyone who experiences what the author describes as "the thud" is pedalling so badly that almost anything they do to improve their stroke is going to be huge win. I'm not sure his advice is on point for people who already have reasonable pedalling technique.

I use clip ins now, have for about 5-6 years. I don't think you actually pull up.

you should actively pull up your leg so the down leg is not working extra to lift it, and the pull up muscles are different muscles so your idle down muscles are still getting a rest.

The pulling up of your leg results in easier pedaling overall, and it is relatively as if you are pulling up on the pedal. Should you actually then pull up? You should go for the most natural sustainable pedal motion for you. When I pedal I "visualize" my feet going in circles, not up and down, it helps me on the "over the top" and "across the bottom" parts of the circle. keeps me sinusoidal!

If you never pull up at all and you are pedaling and feeling tired, try pulling enough to remove the dead weight leg from the equation and you'll feel rejuvenated.

Honestly, go try biking by only pulling up. You don't pull up.

Just do one-legged drills for a bit. You definitely pull up when doing this. Transfer the same muscle activation to two legged cycling, and you're pulling up then too.

Honestly, I pull up. I'm not pulling the pedal up, I'm lifting the leg and pulling my foot up, getting it into postion to push again, same as I would do for running.

you should try it, you can feel the relief in the pushing leg.

I'll go try it. Why couldn't you do that in flats?

You do it with flats too. Clipped in feet just makes it so you don't need to worry about where the foot ends up after that. But it's not a huge difference.

Bike more and you will, it's not particularly noticeable while normally biking. But I really notice it on sprints, but it's also noticeable even with smaller increases in effort over cruising.

It's also quite noticeable when you switch to clipless and go for a hard ride, suddenly new muscles will be sore.

In cycling, clipless = clipped in, which is of course confusing - I think the GP is referring to the same thing as you are.

Clipped pedals refer to pedals with toe straps. Clipless are pedals without a strap, but you clip into. And flat are ones you just rest your feet on.

From what I've read, although I can't remember the source, the difference doesn't really matter on flat surfaces, but clipless perform far better on inclines. I believe this has to do with the angle of the stroke relative to gravity causing some efficiency loss without a clip.

Huh. I had never heard anyone say that, per se.

For my part, I like clipless pedals because they ensure that my feet are positioned optimally, which reduces fatigue and strain on my joints. Which, in turn, probably does mean I can maintain a faster pace for longer, but it's not like I've ever timed myself.

Back when I was mountain biking, I also liked them for better control over the bike, and easier mount/dismount than toe clips.

I also like them for feet placement. They just aren't faster from my experience. It was not something I expected.

I mean, they do, in the sense that they give a stronger and more secure connection to the pedals which lets riders commit more power.

This is relative to casual toe clips or flats. Compared to old school clips + tightly fastened straps with dedicated shoes they aren’t a huge difference performance wise but no one rides those any more because they’re much more dangerous and much less convenient.

Once you're used to flats, this isn't an issue. If you have good pedals and good shoes, your feet don't normally move at all.

I mean, I ride flats on my mtb because the trade off makes sense, but I absolutely wouldn’t do a hard sprint out of the saddle in them like I would on clipless on my road bike.

An opinion piece on the matter of being clipped in vs street shoes: https://www.rivbike.com/pages/the-shoes-ruse

the so-called "half toe clip" is the way to go. I wish I could find pedals that were clipless on one side and would let me install the half toe clip on the other (need the screw holes which usually hold the orange reflectors)

for regular street shoe convenience, they are amazing and much easier to get out of than straps.

I prefer asymmetric pedal sides. I have a pair on my gravel bike that have crank bros. clips on one side, and are flat on the other. Best of both worlds!

My first impulse, given the loads of data to the contrary, was to just hit that down arrow and move on. But that's not fair, so I'll instead throw out: "got a citation for that?"

There's been studies from Bath University, but

https://gearmashers.com/clipless-pedals-vs-flat-pedals-faste...

Here are 2 dudes that did a trial, they produced more watts going up hill in flats, sprints were a big difference though. These were people used to being clipped in, and not using flats.

Where's the studies to the contrary? Nothing I've seen has been more than marginal at best.

You can pull up and push down. Also if you get a pro fitting then the position of your foot will be optimised to get the max power through the pedal.

Anecdotally they’re faster.

Foot placing definitely, I love clipped in shoes for that. You don't pull though. I can ride equally as fast on flats, as I can clipped in. I've gone on 80km bike rides with people who are clipped in while I'm using flats, and it's the same. Clipped in is more comfortable, in my experience, it's not faster.

I’ve done many 100 mile+ sportives and have done both pushing down and pulling up.

You've done it just pulling up?

Both, pushing-and-pulling for rapid acceleration; as well as just pulling, often going up a hill to give the pushing muscles a rest.

Pushing and pulling at the same time takes a bit of time to get used to, but it can become quite natural after a while.

Compared to cages or straps, you mean?

This is shockingly unintuitive if you mean compared to flats. The theory is that the force you use pulling up will always have a reduction in the force you use pushing down?

Compared to flats! I also couldn't believe it at first. I'm not sure the theory of it, but I've done long rides with people in both (80+km) and there was no difference in speed. I also would do a 16km route as fast as I could, and there was no discernible difference in avg speed or time.

No data other than anecdotal but totally agree. I use flats on my road bike and look like an idiot but I go just as fast. I prefer to be able to wear normal shoes so I have less to carry. The whole "you can push while you pull" thing makes no sense, my quads are way more powerful than my hamstrings and you never need that much force when pedalling anyway, cardio fitness is always the limiting factor for me, not leg strength/power.

"You can push while you pull" never made much sense to me on the road. Because, you're right, those muscles aren't as efficient, so you're just going to have to pay the expenditure back with interest.

But, off-road, it can occasionally be useful to give 'er one or two extra firm strokes to help power over a small rise or whatever.

Off road the trade-off for me has always been "how quickly can I bail when things go wrong?". With spiky flats and sticky shoes I don't really have any problems with making enough power.

The answer is "twist your heel outward". It's not really any more complicated than lifting your foot from the pedal. The direction is different, but this is why you practice unclipping for a while before going off road.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com