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Comment by bobajeff | Hacker News Reader

Yeah, I like the tech behind Tesla but am turned off by. 1) The large, distracting screen in the front of the car. 2) The subscription model of the car's firmware.

If electric cars ever become widespread I hope I can find a used one engineered without that stuff. Otherwise I may have to stop buying cars.

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I recently purchased a Kia Telluride. Perhaps I'm now biased because I love the car, but I think it has an excellent combination of tech and usability.

1. It still has buttons and knobs for the things that should be buttons and knobs (e.g. climate control, volume, etc).

2. The heads up display is the killer feature that should be standard on all cars (as is only available on the top speced Telluride). It displays speed, speed limit, blind spot monitoring, lane departure, automated steering, navigation, etc. Unfortunately I don't think Android Auto or Apple Carplay's navigation can be displayed on the HUD - only the OEM Kia nav.

3. The "Smart Cruise" aka Highway Drive Assist aka Adaptive Cruise Control is essentially self-driving minus lane changes. It's engaged with a single button on the wheel and presented in the HUD. It takes corners smoother than I'm able to. I often feel it's turning too early and fight the auto driving but in almost all cases it's correct and my inputs are delayed.

Kia's mobile app for remote start, climate control, valet mode, etc. is pretty terrible though.

2021 Sonata (Limited) here and I echo your sentiment. I spent a lot of time and realized that only Hyundai and Kia provided a good mix of the things I wanted in a smart way.

Mazda's anti-touch stance makes it a non-starter for Android Auto/CarPlay

Toyota, Subaru and Honda have abysmal infotainment interfaces and didn't seem to invest in me enjoying the interior of a car.

Nissan CVTs have questionable reliability . Etc.

The lane keep assist on other average vehicles is so laughably had compared to what Hyundai and Kia have pulled off. These systems actually keep you centered instead of bouncing between lanes (hello Mazda). Blind spot cameras, birdseye cameras, HUD, little touches like the car slowing down automatically for you on some mapped curves when using cruise control etc. (Also I've used that stupid smart park thing waayy more than expected. I love it)

I'm still disappointed that car reviewers don't focus on such usability issues and instead rag on about performance of the engines or "its a toyonda so it is reliable" and ignore such small but practical tweaks.

Mazda's anti-touch stance makes it a non-starter for Android Auto/CarPlay

FWIW my daughter has absolutely no problem using CarPlay on her CX-30. She quickly breezes thru the menus like it's a twitch shooter game. She can probably navigate faster than if it were a touchscreen, because the control pad is low. Her hand isn't extended way out on the dash.

> Unfortunately I don't think Android Auto or Apple Carplay's navigation can be displayed on the HUD - only the OEM Kia nav.

From what I understand Android/Apple have software capability for second screens/HUDs now, but it's on the car manufacturer to support that. There are some BMWs that have it.

Regarding HUDs... it's the one feature I desperately want for my next car. I've been looking into aftermarket options, but all of them are ridiculously cheap and bad or vaporware.

GM had HUDs in many vehicles 20 years ago. It's a shame they aren't more widely available.

I purchased a new C8 to add to the collection until my granddaughter is old enough to drive. The HUD is very, very good. I'm not sure how they managed on such a sharp windshield, but it's crisp and clear even in the brightest of conditions.

With them making so many things mandatory these days, I'd not be surprised to see them making HUD mandatory. It absolutely is easier and faster to read then just looking down. It may only be measured in milliseconds, but it's definitely faster.

Lot's of Mazda's have HUD. And generally good usability.

> If electric cars ever become widespread

Exclude Tesla and most all EVs on the road today are just normal cars that happen to be electric.

Why is special about Tesla that makes them not a “normal” car that happens to be electric?

Specifically, the post I was replying to was lamenting a future where EVs all try to be like Tesla, putting nearly 100% of the instrumentation and controls into a single large touchscreen.

This is unique to Tesla, AFAIK. It worked out very well, it is a brilliant cost-saving measure that can also be marketed as 'elegant'. Have to hand it to Musk on that one. The R&D required to build a normal car interior is expensive, so skipping most of it was a phenomenal move.

So anyway, my point is that there are lots of non-Tesla EV choices, and by-and-large almost all of them are just normal cars with normal dashboards and normal controls, just with electric power instead of gasoline. A few manufacturers seem to be trying to ape Tesla's design on their EVs, but personally I expect a reversion to the mean. Too many people could care less about driving a touchscreen.

This is unique to Tesla, AFAIK.

Sadly, Ford decided to copy Tesla. This picture is from a first look but I think the production version isn't much different.

https://www.slashgear.com/ford-sync-4-first-look-mustang-mac...

Once Ford realized how stupid this was, they glued that knob onto the screen. It literally is glued on. There is a "finger" controlled by the knob that interfaces with the capacitive touchscreen.

I also want a "normal" EV, not a clown car.

Musk coming from software they seem to actually adopted modern software engineering practices that other manufacturers going to struggle with for some time. Being vertically integrated helps heaps too.

Tesla cars have a distinct look and a "prestige" whereas something like Ford's new F-150 will look nearly identical to its gas guzzling brother. There's an ego carried behind Telsa's branding and marketing that other car manufacturers don't feed into even in their own EV offerings.

Many car manufacturers advertise the prestige of their brands. One of the reasons the Porsche 911 has the highest profit margin of any car is the prestige of the Porsche brand.

Here are some examples of how Porsche advertises its electric cars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92sXWVxRr0g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gozMJnzZhU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abq-ZjJZ4oo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvGr0uDKthI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0793euQNL8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBRwF0LU3Ys

Teslas look like Kias.

this was a big thing in the early 10s when electric cars looked like i3s and twizys. everyone wanted a normal looking car and tesla was the first one to make a normal looking car.

now priuses and leafs look normal and tesla is making cybertrucks.

Toyota dominated the small, cheap eco car segment and started building SUVs and Trucks.

Big US auto moves so slowly, they’re always playing catch-up. Time for them to die and be reorganized.

I think what they were getting at is: there's a minimal difference in terms of "look and feel" between non-tesla EVs and the gas counterparts designed by the same manufacturer.

Tesla very much intends to redefine the driver experience as we know it. In the model 3, the entire control system in the center of the dashboard has been replaced by a giant singular 15" carputer touch screen.

If you don't believe me, you can make the comparison for yourself. Just do an image search for the interior on the Model 3 and compare it to that of a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt.

Impossibly high collision repair costs?

> If electric cars ever become widespread

I have a strong suspicion that soon enough after that we will be able to build electric cars from kits, cheap and with no frills. We are on a cusp of a new technological revolution.

>soon enough after that we will be able to build electric cars from kits

I'm skeptical.

An internal combustion engine is a complicated, engineering marvel. But a complete engine, as a unit, isn't difficult to remove/insert. It's big, heavy and awkward, sure (so are electric motors and batteries), but an experienced person can do an engine swap in a couple of hours. And yet there aren't many people building ICE cars from kits. Why not?

Because the drivetrain is only one part of what makes a good car good.

And yet there aren't many people building ICE cars from kits. Why not?

Quite frankly, speaking as someone who is a bit of an automotive enthusiast, you'll probably find even less EVs, because EVs are sterile and boring. They can definitely be fast, but I suspect the average auto enthusiast is not only interested in speed. The sounds and smells of an ICE are far more appealing to the type of people who tend to build custom cars.

>And yet there aren't many people building ICE cars from kits. Why not?

There is basically no market for kit cars because if people want a particular kind of vehicle it probably already exists. If they want a particular kind of powertrain it probably already exists. So it's just a case of getting them and combining them. And there are kits that make the most popular combinations a bolt in deal.

I think it would be a cool idea on a vintage car, but is still too expensive.

A few years ago I found a source selling EV conversion kits for vintage vehicles. It’s definitely a possibility to DIY an electric car.

I could imagine it being like DIY synthesizer kits. Do it yourself if you have the skills and time to put it all together, or spend a bit more for it to come pre assembled, or “some assembly required”.

I would be curious about the safety regulations behind this.

You can sort of do that now by buying a gas-powered car and a conversion kit. It just tends to be expensive, and the kits don't always include batteries and battery boxes.

Example: https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&pro...

I wish EV tax credits applied to conversions and not just new vehicles. It would make conversions a lot more economical, and maybe we'd start seeing low-cost mass-produced conversion kits designed for popular vehicle models.

May I ask why you think that? (Sincere question, not meant to be snarky). Even assuming electric car assembly is simpler than an ICE powered car, there are still a lot of large, heavy, and expensive components. And that's setting aside all the regulations around it being a "street legal" vehicle, which can place odd constraints and vary from location to location.

I could see there being ways to build your own, just as you could build your own house or laptop if you acquire the right parts. What makes you think that people will broadly want and use kits? (or am I misinterpreting what you're saying?)

The overall mechanics of an electric car is (or can be made, if it's not a conversion) so much simpler; the battery is, in fact, modular, each piece weighing about the same as or less than a regular car battery. I can easily imagine a market for consumer EVs assembled not by huge plants but rather by small local shops as well as enthusiasts. The age of the large brands dominating is coming to an end...

I am confused, why would someone want a car from a kit?

It's made of hundreds of parts, some weight more than a grown man and you could seriously injure yourself or assemble it incorrectly. It's not gonna be an ikea kit.

We've created assembly lines for this exact reason and they are really good at their job, why would you go backwards unless you are seriously into DIY or an arctic explorer flatpacking them?

There are relatively simple conversion kits that have good motors and controllers and allow for regenerative braking. I don't see building an EV getting much simpler than that.

The first collisions of speeding custom modified cars will put an end to any individual innovation there.

There have been collisions of speeding custom modified cars since there have been cars. Why would electric ones be any different?

And we all need to pray for HP not to get into the automotive industry,or we are all screwed.

We'd probably get notices that our fuel has expired and must be replaced with new genuine HP fuel.

While being in the middle of a highway with a 5 second notice before the engine switches off.

What do you mean by subscription model of the firmware? There's no payment or anything you have to do to keep getting upgrades of the is.

Subscription model?

Some of the extra infotainment stuff (read: media content) is subscription only. Some functional extras like full self-driving or faster acceleration are one-off purchases. The rest of the software -- all the things you'd expect the car to do -- comes with the vehicle and gets regular OTA updates.

I think with Tesla the only subscription is "premium connectivity", which is basically a cell data plan. The car works fine without it. Even the nav will still use traffic data for routing, it just won't visualize it for you.

In addition to the comments about premium connectivity, I don't see how the acceleration unlock is anything but a positive. Car companies have been charging for options for forever, except before you had to make the choice at purchase time. Now the upgrade can happen whenever.

If it's really just contained to media content, that's like saying Sirus XM means your car operates on a subscription model.

As a Tesla owner, I’ve slowly come to realize that most complaints about Teslas online don’t reflect the reality of driving one. I was skeptical of all the things people are complaining about here, but I decided to take advantage of the seven day return policy and drive a Mode 3 for a week: I discovered that nearly every control I care about is controlled by one of two sticks or two little thumb wheels and I almost never have to interact with the screen while driving. Similarly, as others note here, the subscription is for the cell connectivity and media packages, not for the “car’s firmware”. Finally, as a software developer, I really appreciate that Tesla has made updating my car’s firmware trivial and they actually ship firmware updates to older cars: there’s much less difference between a 2018 Tesla and a 2021 Tesla than between similarly spaced cars from other manufacturers.

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