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Comment by newacct583 | Hacker News Reader

The new cases going down are at least partially because of continued mitigation work.

I genuinely don't understand the anti-mask mania, I really don't. Mask use is almost free. Virtually no activities are precluded by wearing a mask (even eating, frankly, just lift it up and put it back to chew). Masks should be the first mitigation rule enforced in a respiratory disease environment and the last one relaxed.

Restaurant and event closures, quarantines, travel restrictions, testing requirements, vaccine registries... All of those have significant real costs and should be done only when masks aren't sufficient. And they should all be relaxed first before we give up masks.

But yet, everyone points to masks as somehow the opposite: in the minds of so many people (even seemingly scientifically literate people here) they're the worst thing imaginable, and... why? They're just masks. Wear 'em. It's cheap and easy.

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They are annoying to wear. They make my beard itch. They make my glasses fog up. They make me feel overheated if it's warm out. My airflow feels noticeably restricted if I am exercising, even with ordinary non-N95 masks. They are easy to lose track of, which is highly annoying when I am otherwise ready to leave my apartment.

Masks fucking suck.

I hate masks too. But the moment you realize masks are more about protecting the public from transmission when you happen to suddenly get sick and isn’t about your protection, you’ll literally breathe easier by choosing to wear the cheapest masks. You’re better off obsessing about who you’re around and washing your hands if you’re worried about Covid. That’s why wearing N95 and fabric masks is overkill. Buy the mass produced disposable black (not thick fabric) masks. They look better than the blue ones. And if you wear glasses, they have slightly better airflow. Put a box in your car, a box in your house, a box on your desk. And then just grab and go! It’s surprising to me that we’ve been through a year of the pandemic and people still can’t adopt a change in routine!! And you don’t need a mask while exercising!!!!

I genuinely do hope we see widespread behavioral change, where people are more considerate, and choose to wear masks... when they are sick or recently exposed to someone who is.

I am not sick though.

Are you unconcerned about asymptomatic transmission? As I understand it, a big reason why there's a pandemic is that you might not necessarily know whether you're infectious.

Asymptomatic individuals are indeed less infectious on an individual basis, but I know of at least one study [1] which purports to show a lot of transmission from asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic people.

[1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...

Not only am I not sick, I am vaccinated, and vaccines are widely available where I live.

So no, I have absolutely no concern for asymptomatic transmission.

Whole careers are spent wearing masks, though. I mean, fine. I find them mildly annoying and you think they're the devil's work. But we both agree that we should be opening restaurants and theaters before we relax mask use, right?

You don't need to wear a mask if you're fully vaccinated because the vaccine is over 90% effective at preventing infection

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21257987v...

And that's the kind of innumerate thinking I don't understand. Masks aren't an either/or thing. Say masks are maybe 60% effective (there's no real consensus and good science is hard to come by). A mask-wearing vaccinated person is now 96% protected. Add that to staying outside (maybe another 75% or so?) and you get to 99%. Every bit helps, which is one of the reasons why we're reaching herd immunity.

Now, you're right, there's a cost tradeoff. If everyone is at 99% it would be pure insanity to close restaurants, say. But... masks? Leave them on, until it's dead. Again, this is the cheapest mitigation we have. Roll back every other protection first. Send people back to the office. Open up the stadiums. Start hugging again. Lift the visa restrictions. Visit the grandparents. Do all that stuff first before relaxing mask use.

While you’re at it why don’t we mandate everyone wear latex gloves all the time? No biggie.

And just always have hand sanitizer on your person. Just a small bottle so not much of a problem.

Can we just mandate people select a group of 100 people they will interact with? Almost nobody has more friends + family to see than that so it’s hardly an issue when you think about it.

You have this backwards: mandates must be continually justified beyond a reasonable doubt, not the reverse. Remember: mandates are dictating how others live their lives. Just because something isn’t that big a deal to you or aligns with your values doesn’t mean imposing that on someone else with the threat of government enforcement is reasonable in the slightest. Wear your mask, they are tools used to good effect, but requiring others to wear them is a step that should be continually challenged with all available true evidence and aggregate personal values - as should any mandate or law.

This is a giant list of strawmen. I'm not arguing for a mask mandate, I'm saying that masks as mitigation have been and continue to be good strategies (and in particular very cheap ones) and that we want to continue to use them until the pandemic is actually controlled (vs. just shrinking) and not incessantly mock people who continue to use effective means of disease control.

It’s telling how any mention of the fact that masks aren’t really that effective instantly is branded ‘mocking’. Especially while the pro mask Facebook groups have spent the last year pointing fingers at ‘anti mask Karens’.

I think it isn’t necessarily innumeracy to move past napkin math 18 months on. People have had the time to see the results of several cycles of behavior modification and perhaps aren’t interested in participating further.

Just wanted to say you've made very good points.

I think some of your points are valid.*

However, if people are to wear masks until covid is truly gone, you may be asking people to wear masks forever. I think once covid is less of a population risk than a bad flu, all mandates should be dropped.

You should also disregard anti-vaxers* from the stats. If they want to die, fine. So at this point we have anti-vaxers, kids under 12, and some very rare medical cases left in the US now. With community spread where it is (low and dropping), the flu is genuinely scarier for kids under 12, and likely to kill more.

There is no quantitative reason for any restrictions at this point.

* I'll note the first thing that should have been prioritized is un-banning vaccines. *Anti vaxers in this context means anyone who at this point has had months to get a free vaccine and still hasn't, they have now earned the label.

FWIW, I believe the guidelines do not recommend wearing a mask while exercising outdoors. I think partially because you're moving relatively quickly and partially because it's not very practical.

>Mask use is almost free.

They cost $10 for a box of five here for masks that ideally should be one time use, if used properly. I've noticed a ton of 'mask pollution' over last year. Masks lying on the ground, masks in waterbodies, masks on the beach.

The only places that offer masks on entry are government run places, despite it being legally mandatory everywhere. Otherwise, you pay out of your pocket.

In the end, i see people wearing masks incorrectly everywhere, we have such rules as 'wear a mask inside, unless you're sitting at a table' Which makes absolutely no sense.

The masks used by 90% of people use are no better than tying a t-shirt over your face.

The way it's been implemented most places, people's attitudes towards it both the for and against people and generally everything with masks are over the top or not enough.

If you are in a small enclosed place in close proximity to other people and you wear an appropriate face covering you don't touch and you dispose of properly afterwards or wash as soon as possible, you are doing something effective.

Otherwise, it seems to be more about appearances and making people feel better than anything.

Hell, most of the covid signs at businesses around here pretty much say everyone needs to wear a mask so 'people feel comfortable'.

> The masks used by 90% of people use are no better than tying a t-shirt over your face.

In fact tying a t-shirt over your face provides decent protection. This stuff was all studied. You're right that good masks with good seals work much better than amateur cloth masks. You are wildly wrong to imply as you do that they don't work. They clearly do.

Again, I just don't understand the irrationality here. They're just masks. They're cheap and effective, continue to be, and shouldn't ever have been big deal. If people want to wear masks for a little extra protection let them wear a fucking mask for God's sake. Why must everything be a politicized fight?

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