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Comment by rubicon33 | Hacker News Reader

This is what most of the newcomers to WFH don't understand:

There is a big different between WFH for a few months where EVERYONE else is also WFH ... and WFH for YEARS where some, or most, of the others are in office.

The latter is years upon years of feeling disconnected, left out, and sidelined. The vast majority of companies even if they allow remote are not remote first. Remote first involves actual structural and procedural changes.

Lastly, WFH for years can result in a serious mental health decline. If you think you're doing fine after 1 year, come see me after 5. You'll realize by the end of it just how important water cooler conversation is for your BRAIN. You'll recognize just how bad it can be to see (as a function of your time alive) MOSTLY just your home. It does a number on you.

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> Lastly, WFH for years can result in a serious mental health decline. If you think you're doing fine after 1 year, come see me after 5. You'll realize by the end of it just how important water cooler conversation is for your BRAIN. You'll recognize just how bad it can be to see (as a function of your time alive) MOSTLY just your home. It does a number on you.

This is just down to nothing more then poor discipline and lazily wanting an office to fill the gap for you. I have been working from home for 9 years now, 5 days a week. You know how I solve the issue, I go outside. I go and run. I take my dogs out for a walk. I also meet with friends to eat / drink coffee. I look after myself. The time I save commuting means I can do things like cook myself a proper lunch, go and have a nap if I did not sleep great the night before. I have much more freedom to balance my life. I agree though, if I sit at my desk all day inside and then stop work to go and sit on the couch and watch Netflix, sure it's going to be detrimental to my mental health.

I think some folks with crippling social anxiety might have a bone to pick with this assertion.

Surely if they have crippling social anxiety, being stuck in an office all day with others where they are expected to socialise no matter how bad their anxiety might be playing up on any given day, is far worse?

Also the only social part I referenced was coffee with close friends. I think drinking a coffee with an understanding friend(s) is much easier then being around 20+ colleagues for 8 hours straight.

Depends on the person. I am generally fine in a "being stuck in the office all day" situation, but get anxiety trying to setup plans for social interactions, even with really close friends. Even just coffee. Also, 1 on 1 situations tend to cause me more anxiety that groups/crowds.

Point being, everyone is different in this regard.

I cannot speak to what is easier or not. I was simply pointing out that you were laying down a blanket assertion that it was lazy and undisciplined, and that might not be universally appreciated.

Just because someone has extreme social anxiety doesn't mean they permanently refuse to take action. Sometimes they succeed in actively overcoming it and are capable of forming connections. Being in an environment where you can passively observe the character of others does tend to make it easier to approach them on the days when you're feeling up to it. A person might choose to work in an office because they understand this benefit of consistent forced exposure.

I’m on year five and I LOVE it - I never want to go back to an office, sure, maybe it’s better for the company but you know what’s better for me? WFH. I have more time for myself and to see family and friends, I co work with friends, and instead of commuting j make meals and I work with my cats all day long.

Maybe you like the office more and can’t make wfh work, not everyone can! But don’t assume everyone else is like you

I always thought I would be a sure-fit for permanent WFH, but your comment absolutely nails it. My biggest problem is that a large proportion of interactions with remote work is formal, in a sense. No casual chat, no social “grease”. If you started a remote-only job in a pandemic, it is so easy to become disconnected, and disincentivized with colleagues that only exist in 2D asking for PR reviews. Really did a number on me.

Wfh pre pandemic is not the same as wfh during the pandemic. Usually my team gets together 2-3 times a year and can’t wait till we can again

> a large proportion of interactions with remote work is formal, in a sense. No casual chat, no social “grease”.

Why? You have to put in the effort to be social, but you need to do that in person, too.

Maybe that’s a touch too specific. But Igor me, it’s a lot easier to strike up a rapport on a walk to get coffee than scheduling a 30 min quarantini, a word I have grown to detest

Ah. While my company does have a semi-daily "30 minute meetup" on "random topic of the day", that's not how I chat socially with coworkers. We have a few channels that are just "shoot the shit" channels. I us those to discuss random topics. And there's several private channels for the occasional need to rant. Overall, not all that different from the water cooler.

We have watercooler chats in zoom. After standup, if organic conversions pop up, they are considered sacred.

I have been working remotely for my entire work life (11 years employed, about 5 years freelance) and I am a very happy person.

To be fair, I'm also developed some very strong friendships over the internet (through videogames), so i guess i have a lot of experience in the field

> WFH for years can result in a serious mental health decline. If you think you're doing fine after 1 year, come see me after 5. You'll realize by the end of it just how important water cooler conversation is for your BRAIN

I've worked from home 100%, worked from an office 100%, and worked a combination. Overall, I think the combination is best. However, having put in somewhere on the order of 15 years fully remote, it has not caused any problems for me. I chat with people via IM, including both purely social and problem solving discussions. I've been on teams where everyone was remote and ones where I was the only remote, and in areas in between.

Overall, working remotely is good for some people and not for others; much like every other arrange. It takes skill and effort to get good at, just as in person social interactions do. Some companies make it easier than others.

It's a complicated topic, and I really don't think it's possible to say "it's good" or "it's bad", only "it depends".

4 years in, no issues. Probably better than ever. Not everyone is an extrovert, talking daily over audio to several people is fine for me. Sometimes we'll meet up for particularly hard problems to brain storm but otherwise, I'm good behind a screen. I think extroverts think everyone needs that face time, but no, we really don't. I'm fine with seeing my friends and family, my co-workers just aren't that special to me.

Surely there are other reasons to leave your home than work and other people to socialize with in person than co-workers.

Depends on your character, stage of your life and priorities. It looks way different when you’re young, outgoing single person. Vs when you’re older, with a family (and tons of obligations) and introverted. Work is then often a place where you socialize and take a break from all the other stuff happening in your life.

Yep. WFH gives me more time to have the social interactions I chose to have.

Sure, but work is still a significant portion of ones waking hours. Personally, I wouldn't want to work in a place where I can't or don't enjoy socializing with co-workers. I hope, what comes out of this pandemic is, that there is going to be higher diversity in work modalities one can make part of a job seeking decision.

> Surely there are other reasons to leave your home than work and other people to socialize with in person than co-workers.

I wouldn't be surprised if people who don't have local family or established friends in the area and live in cities where talking to strangers is considered threatening behavior tend to socialize primarily, if not exclusively, with co-workers.

But that's a really limited view. If you live in a city, there are likely loads of activities, clubs, meetups you can go to at least weekly.

Meet

Well it appears to have done a number on you but myself and many others really enjoy it and would never go back to an office. Not sure I’d assume my own experience should speak for everyone else’s. But I run a remote first team and have worked remote for decades, with great success and no mental issues.

> come see me after 5

hi. Been completely remote for 5+ years. My mental is better than ever.

> You'll realize by the end of it just how important water cooler conversation is for your BRAIN

I would much rather use all the saved time NOT going to an office and instead spend it with people I care about more having more interesting conversations in a more comfortable environment.

> The latter is years upon years of feeling disconnected, left out, and sidelined.

I empathize with some of the isolation that WFH can bring, but I also strongly disagree that it is an inevitability. WFH gives you more freedom with your time and doesn't force you into social interaction by default which, depending on the person, can be a good or a bad thing.

I think it just highlights the importance of CONCIOUSLY choosing our social interactions which might take more effort but I think results in higher satisfaction. You could look at it like junk food vs. nutritious food. One is convenient, leaves you wanting more, and is probably not as healthy if that's all you take in. The other fills you up more, sometimes takes a bit more work, and ends up being more sustainable long term.

This is really subjective. I dislike water cooler talk. I dislike overhearing conversations. I dislike people interrupting me with something that could have been a message.

This year WFH have been a significant mental health improvement. I am more social outside of work and I am more productive during work.

This is exactly my experience. I am the only one in my team working in another city and this is just ridiculous how many times I am feeling exactly these feelings (disconnected, left out, and sidelined).

I am dealing with an insane amount of issues that would have never happened if everyone was in the same office.

It really depends on the culture of the company and the team, and it appears that mine has not managed to change enough (whatever they claim).

> You'll realize by the end of it just how important water cooler conversation is for your BRAIN

Any source or data for this assertion.

Yeah, fully agree. I worked at a fully remote company and it self-selects for the kind of person who enjoys being alone. It completely sucks as we are social creatures who enjoy the extra physical connection/camaraderie that is impossible to achieve with remote work.

I have colleagues who have done WFH always - at least 5 years. I do not see any mental issues in them.

You are speaking about your personal experience. You never wanted to work remotely, you never prepared for it and as a result it has been a traumatic experience for you.

On the other hand there is people out there, like me, that have been improving and refining remote working skills from decades.

When I traveled to former Soviet Republics it shocked me how helpless old people felt doing the most basic things. As young people they were trained to delegate everything on the State. The State did a very bad job almost at everything but there was no alternative, so they never developed the skills .

When they were old,it is difficult to learn anything new and they had not the necessary skills to survive on their own and were nostalgic about communism.

That made me realize that most schools and Universities and jobs just train you to obey orders and do not leave space for resourcefulness and independence.

The mental health part really depends on whether you're living alone or with others.

it's about having the option isn't it, you should not be forced into either way. Going to the office 1 per month for that buzz is fine by me. Some people needs more. No one size fits all.

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