Tech groups sue Florida over content moderation law
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Florida will fine social media companies that bar candidates - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27268418 - May 2021 (169 comments)
The Florida Deplatforming Law Is Unconstitutional - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27064221 - May 2021 (37 comments)
Florida bill will fine social media sites for banning politicians- except Disney - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27010054 - May 2021 (5 comments)
Florida plans to fine social media for banning politicians - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27006912 - May 2021 (11 comments)
Disney gets special “theme park” exception to Florida’s anti-tech bill - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27002543 - May 2021 (23 comments)
Florida bill to fine social media for banning politicians - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27001610 - May 2021 (51 comments)
Others?
It's crazy to see such blatant, open corruption in American politics.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/local-politics/article/Out-of-co...
> that's probably insured anyway
That's a pretty poor attitude, imho. You're ok with stealing things as long as they're "insured?" Who pays the insurance, and what are insurance rates based on? Insurance companies are looking at these multi-million dollar losses and jacking up the rates in these areas, or not covering certain areas at all. The end result is businesses are closing, and the community is losing access to various stores because of it. So, who's really benefiting from this?
If you have anything of value just insure it and put a low deductible on it. Cost of doing business in these times.
A friend of mine runs a Equestrian Academy. A couple of weeks ago-- this person who rents a place on the premises invited her "son" to squat on the property.
The thing about horses is this-- they're pack animals. You have to be calm around them because, if you excite one horse. all the horses will see that excited guy, assume there's danger, and start running. This is a life or death thing. A spooked horse will trample people, buck, etc.
Every "horse person" knows this. It's the first thing you learn about horses.
So this individual-- makes a habit of driving his car fast up and down the entrance of the ranch. This spooked a horse and nearly got a little girl killed (who was riding it).
The second time this happened-- someone happened to be driving down that entrance and was doing the right thing-- going under 10mph. This person parks his car and then assaults the driver and another person who tried to break up the fight.
Police were called, and, "Nothing can be done." Despite 4 witnesses. The dude is back squatting on the property after a couple of days.
--
In my county-- A guy drove a stolen car into a Porsche-- stole the keys for the cars-- stole a Porsche-- and was released on 10k bail. Literally, a DUI is 50k bail.
Societal order itself is at issue.
Blame your mayor, sheriff, and state government (who are all - unsurprisingly - voted in by locals). They’re the ones setting the agenda.
Crimes of financial impact are generally seen as “should’ve bought insurance” type of situations. The agenda is set by those with money and those with money have insurance - so these things don’t bother them unless it’s egregiously expensive.
From the new law:
https://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Documents/loaddoc.as...
> The term does not include any information service, system, Internet search engine, or access software provider operated by a company that owns and operates a theme park or entertainment complex as defined in s. 509.013.
https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2015/509.013 > “Theme park or entertainment complex” means a complex comprised of at least 25 contiguous acres owned and controlled by the same business entity and which contains permanent exhibitions and a variety of recreational activities and has a minimum of 1 million visitors annually.Or, hell, I bet Merlin Entertainment might be receptive to an offer for Legoland.
https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_22,_App-Based...
Do as I say, not as I do, I suppose.
Oh wait, they do have twitch, which probably hits these issues. Huh.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
State governments can’t contravene the constitution either, so this applies to the state of Florida too.
Would you defend the right of association of Facebook and that Facebook cannot be compelled to support speech it does not want to?
I'd be okay with it.
>What if he also blocked all posts that were positive about the other candidates?
I'd be okay with it.
> The groups argue the law, set to go into effect July 1, violates the First Amendment by compelling platforms to host speech they'd otherwise remove.
> They also argue it violates the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment by exempting some companies, and that its vagueness violates the due process clause of the 5th and 14th amendments.
I'm not an expert on this by any means, but isn't this an admission that these companies act like publishers? Yet they have Section 230 protection?
How does that work? If they're removing legal content, you should be able to sue Twitter for content they leave up, right?
> Section 230 says that "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider"
What Section 230 says is that all providers of interactive computer services are not liable for user content. That's it. It doesn't matter what the interactive computer service does, or publishes or doesn't publish. If you're a provider of an interactive computer service, you're shielded from liability for user uploaded content.
If it's just uncompensated randos...well then it wouldn't be a traditional publication anymore.
[1]: https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-gb/tiktok-creator-fund-your-q...
That's "how it works" with the laws in place today, there doesn't seem to be a deficiency.
This is likely a reason why YT and others demonetize controversial videos - for their own preservation, they don't want to fund the creation of content that might lure a suit.
I don't think anything's broken here. Definitely nothing that would be fixed by this Florida bill.
However, some companies do think that Section 230 shields them from all liability for their interactive computer services, and lower-level courts seem to agree with them[1].
The case here[1][2] has made its way to the Supreme Court[2], though.
[1] https://www.lawfareblog.com/herrick-v-grindr-why-section-230...
[2] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/diversity/women/publicati...
If you kick someone out of your restaurant for being loud and boisterous in the dining area, you are not suddenly responsible that someone was disparaging a public figure the next seat over and you chose not to kick them out.
Having some standards doesn't automatically make you a publisher. A site with user-uploaded videos that removed, say, all porn, would not make itself a publisher.
Now, obviously there's the question of, how many restrictions until you're a publisher? I'm not sure the law is clear on that.
As a provider for interactive computer services, you're afforded unlimited restrictions on the content you choose to serve. Section 230 of the CDA applies to all interactive computer services and their providers, no matter what.
From the EFF[1]:
> Section 230 says that "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider" (47 U.S.C. § 230). In other words, online intermediaries that host or republish speech are protected against a range of laws that might otherwise be used to hold them legally responsible for what others say and do. The protected intermediaries include not only regular Internet Service Providers (ISPs), but also a range of "interactive computer service providers," including basically any online service that publishes third-party content. Though there are important exceptions for certain criminal and intellectual property-based claims, CDA 230 creates a broad protection that has allowed innovation and free speech online to flourish.
They will be in Florida though.
It's another thing entirely when Twitter or Facebook make false accusations about you in the process of banning you. Like let's say you had some ideas about where COVID originated and they banned you, slandering your good name in the process, by saying you were spreading falsehoods and conspiracy theories.
The first thing I did was google what's been chewed on in popular discourse: "publisher vs platform law." To my surprise, my understanding of the law was wrong. This wonderful article from the EFF cleared up why such a distinction is incorrect [1].
My takeaway from the article is that the current laws with respect to liability are preferred to the alternative, which would incentivize companies to not moderate whatsoever out of a fear of liability due to "taking a stance." This lack of curation not only hurts the ability of companies to cater to consumers' sense of community, but also allows for hecklers' vetoes. Indeed, if a user spuriously threatens legal action over content by another user, why incur editorial liability by investigating, as opposed to indiscriminately removing the content?
[1] - https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/publisher-or-platform-...
With that premise, social media should even more clearly protected from government censorship (like this bill).
Facebook is way too powerful and news algorthms are perhaps destroying democracy, but trampling on the First Amendment is not the solution.
With the downfall of Florida as well as many other states, perhaps authoritarian control has truly taken over.
This is all about Ron DeSantis and Florida Republicans being upset that Twitter banned Trump. This law is as authoritarian as it gets.
The government regulating what speech private platforms may allow or ban is textbook authoritarianism.
If a private group wants to permit anything that's not outright illegal, or if they want to have very strict rules on what's allowed, either of those should be fine. And if a company is being overly and unreasonably restrictive about rules, that's a perfect opportunity for a disruptor to enter the fray. The very fact that attempted disruptors constantly get slapped down is a good indication that the rules some complain about aren't nearly as unreasonably as they appear. If the market opening was really that big, someone would be able to make it happen effectively.
That's not what the first amendment is. The first amendment ONLY applies to the government.
The fact that so many on hacker news continue to not understand this simple fact no matter how many times it's explained is absolutely mind-boggling. You can complain about Facebook and Twitter's policies as being dumb or bad, fine, but regardless of your opinion on them, they have nothing to do with the first amendment. None.
The first amendment has NEVER meant that private groups are obligated to carry your speech. Even if Facebook was explicitly discriminating in the open against one side, that would be entirely within their rights. Maybe that would be a bad thing that you could argue against, but it would have nothing to do with the Constitution.
edit: also, what does "neutral platform" even mean? Oh, I'm sure FB and Twitter make some claims to 'neutrality' or 'lack of bias', somewhere, but what legal weight or meaning does that have? None whatsoever.
Or are you trying to suggest that if tomorrow Zuckerberg announced, "we're going to be the biggest online social platform for Marxists only" this would make it okay in your eyes?
BUT the idea of free speech is heavily ingrained in American culture. School children complain about free speech when their teacher asks them to be nice - it’s a freedom learned from a very young age.
While the freedom technically only applies to freedom from government, it’s a commonly held belief in America that everyone’s speech is free and should be free, which is applied even on places like fb or Twitter. The idea (even if not the practice) that speech is protected and neutral in all forums of society is VERY American.
The back-stop to private institutions putting their thumb on the scales of open public discourse is, traditionally, the public... the public that ceases to read the papers that are too biased, or boycotts the coffee shop because it has a political agenda out of alignment with the agenda of most of the local community.
>it’s a commonly held belief in America that everyone’s speech is free and should be free
Seems more like the commonly held belief in America is that MY speech is free but your speech maybe shouldn't be. The school children might have a differing opinion on the teacher's "right to free speech" after the teacher calls them "stupid cunts".
Turns out that even the "free speech" platforms are not so free: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200627/23551144803/as-pr...
And of course, the head of the Republican party is also against free speech when they don't like the speech: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-06-24/column-trum...
I mean, that actually does potentially apply there, assuming it's a public school. In practice, speech there does tend to be limited anyway, but there have absolutely been first amendment court cases about what schools are and aren't allowed to restrict.
> it’s a commonly held belief in America that everyone’s speech is free and should be free, which is applied even on places like fb or Twitter. The idea (even if not the practice) that speech is protected and neutral in all forums of society is VERY American.
Not really, though. Everyone gets that even if you send in a letter to the editor, that doesn't make them obligated to reprint it. Almost every other kind of company, people already accept that they aren't obligated to work with you or allow you to publish what you want. Everyone's seen those signs about, "we reserve the right to refuse service blah blah blah" hanging around all kinds of retail stores.
In fact, the people complaining the loudest here -- conservatives -- are usually the people saying, "government should stay out of business, let businesses do whatever they want". It's only now that this principle works against them that they're finding that suddenly they don't agree anymore, and they would rather the government micromanage business policies to their political advantage. It's naked partisanship.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Florida#Convers...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Stat...
Nice drive by, try checking your sources a little more closely.
> On September 3, 2015, State Representative David Richardson filed a bill to ban the use of conversion therapy on LGBT minors.[86] The bill was introduced to the Florida Legislature on January 12, 2016. However, it died in a House subcommittee on March 11, 2016.[87] A similar bill died in 2017.[88]
The bills that died were bills that ban conversion therapy.
The government of Florida — comprised of the politicians of Floria — just passed a law dictating to a private company what is and isn’t allowed on their platform, specifically requiring that platforms publish the speech of government politicians.
Authority: you must broadcast our messages.
Sounds pretty damn authoritarian to me.
On the one hand you can have groups calling fir violence against another group and that is ignored, which is fine, but then another group engages in similar behavior and they get banned... which is not impartial. That’s a problem if you have received ideology.
Moreover, I think not silencing politicians is a good thing. Let all sides broadcast their ideas or platforms and let voters decide rather than an unaccountable private Corp.
If a politician breaks the rules, ideally they should be subject to the same rules anyone else is, and the same goes for any other rich or famous people. Obviously in practice that's going to be a hard target to hit, but for God's sake we shouldn't make it an explicit goal to make them a special class that can do whatever they want with impunity.
Especially when the private sector is so much more efficient in giving the finger than the public sector will ever be.