Currently working from home gives me all of that and I haven't been happier with a job ever.
- taking a 20 min nap in your lunch break
- doing a set of push-ups between phone calls
- cooking your own meal at lunch
- giving a hug to your partner
- having your pet in the room with you
- not listening to your coworkers noises
- 3 x 7 minute yoga sessions
- a 20 min power walk while on the phone
- zero driving, waiting, zero miles on your car, zero car accidents guaranteed (where I live people spend 10h week commuting on average)
… during your workday.
In 2019, my team would occasionally need to work long hours or would deliver something awesome. I would reward them with HH and dinner/late meal. It gave me a chance to say "thanks" and for us to bond over the challenge we overcame.
I can't do that anymore! I've don't virtual HH, but it isn't the same! I would REALLY like a virtual solution to "bond with your team" and "say thanks in a meaningful way" - cost be damned.
As a side note, politics suck. I really like WFH. Working long hours is bad - bonding is good.
At the end of the day if you take a weeknight from me I'm going to be annoyed at best and upset at worst. If you take a work day from me, or part of one, but still expect me to get a full days or work done we will both be in a bad position.
I get the intention here. I used to be a people manager and I planned lots of things for after work. But I stopped when I realized how difficult it actually made things for many people and people with kids.
"Me" is the key word
> and for us to bond over the challenge we overcame.
That occurred already. It happened through the process of overcoming the challenge.
I get the intent, but your people probably just want to rest and get some of their time back. If you must celebrate, do it during hours. I typically did offsite lunch time activities pre-COVID. Now it's more gift driven and individual. I made up award systems like the high school "most likely to ...". If someone renovated their masterbath, give them something that is specific to that as a thanks. Find out if they prefer public or 1:1 gratitude
I don’t want that every week, but the once every 3 months’ish that we had going was pretty nice.
It’s very much different strokes for different folks. Just like everyone’s personal lives differ so does their appetite for coworker extracurricular activities. But I agree that the every 3 months or so is a fine cadence. But, 1) schedule it at the beginning of the quarter 2) be ready to reschedule it if it coincides with a sprint of long hours.
In a perfect world, your team would tell you if they were too burned out for it or not, in a judgement free way. But that doesn’t happen due to fear of judgment or not wanting to rock the boat (say nay when others want yay) or multitude of other reasons. Point is, if you know anyone on the team has significant others, kids, pets, or any life outside work you as a leader shouldn’t ask them to work more in the name of celebration.
Maybe your team would appreciate a $200 gift card instead of HH + dinner/late meal, especially when some people don't drink or prefer healthy meals instead of steakhouses.
Imagine being one of the few Mormons, observant Muslims, or recovering alcoholics at a company that "rewards" your team with Happy Hours. Or being someone who's been sexually harassed or assaulted at previous events where coworkers drank too much.
I'm not suggesting that it's easy (or even possible) to plan a social event that's guaranteed to be welcomed by every member of a team. But I think events that focus or rely on alcohol as the means of team bonding can be a bad idea depending on the team.
I'm much better with a long lunch + socialize and then piss off early from work as a reward.
I’m pretty antisocial, personally, and love it when my workmates get to the point and focus on the actual “drone”-tasks. Why? Because that is why I do software. I don’t do software because I love people. I don’t do software because I love the paycheck. I do software because I love software and every second away from focusing on the concerns of producing quality software just seems like a genuine waste of time. Even here on HN, it’s mostly an opportunity to safely experiment with “politics” in a way that isn’t totally exhausting.
I get that everyone is not like me, and I’m okay with that. I don’t expect everyone to have my preferences.
I’d personally prefer to be treated as a respected “drone” (now THAT seems rude) and I don’t really want to spend time on banter, unless it’s being used as a metaphor that can improve our collective output.
This is “fun.” This is why I “work” (it’s not work to me). Discussing requirements and problem solving solutions is great; it’s fun. Happy hour is “work” to me. Please don’t act like I’m rude just because I don’t share your preferences.
Presenting it as a clear-cut _you are a queue of work and paychecks_ is where it breeds conflict. For the royal you that description is merely a description and expresses no judgement, it is simply the _why_ of your intentional lack of interaction with your coworkers.
To the people on the other side, that description brings back the negative feelings they felt when a coworker that held that same opinion (not you) was unnecesarily rude at work and shielded his failings behind the _I don’t do people_ cover.
I realize that asking you to use the human touch (for lack of a better term) is asking you to have to “work” to cater to the social aspects that you are trying to not get involved with…
So instead I’ll posit that your last paragraph is a perfectly acceptable response to the eternal “want to join and be social” question. It’s innofensive yet firm, and it conveys your position in a concise way that nobody can really pick apart unless they want to make an scene and look bad.
I interpreted "I don't care about you as a person" as "I don't think you have moral worth outside your instrumental value to me", which goes beyond rudeness and into questions of whether the person can be trusted at all.
So who do I not see, the ones who insisted I must follow their favourite sport teams, the ones who got so drunk on the weekend they could not remember what they did but thought I should have been with them. The one (thank goodness it was only one) who keep eyeing the high school girls while we were in our 30s and 40S. And last the ones who always had to go out for a smoke, I don't want to imagine what their places were like.
You can like some people, but some people you just do not want to be around when you are not being paid to work with them.
"Let's go down to the pub" is still capitalizing on my time. It's still work, just the location has changed. And in the past it has often started at 3 and then kept going and going until way later than if I'd just worked out my day.
There is always some idealism around it like "oh if you don't drink you don't have to, just come hang out for a bit" or "you don't have to stay late you can leave early" but in practice people aren't actually that understanding. You try to head home and it's all "you're not having a good time?" Or "you're not a team player"
No thanks. I'll pass on all of that from now on.
Imo the key is making sure you don’t create a perception that you punish or bully people for not participating. As evidenced by this thread, it’s easy to do even inadvertently.
But, is it ingrained griping?
Or Social Inequity Aversion? I don't like beer, so if you get it and I have to watch stupid sports and drink water, I don't want you to have your reward?
It’s all part of the package if you manage people. As I said, you need to be careful to avoid behaving in a way that creates bad situations. (Ie I’m not advocating frat house behavior or alcohol culture at work)
I'm going down the pub - anyone care to join me? I'm buying."
That's why they don't mind paying for these, because it is seen as additional collaboration/problem solving time. but they 100% would not be okay with handing out additional money to those who do not wish to attend.
Edit: To clarify as well, I don't think people should feel forced or inclined to attend these events for whatever reason they wish, this is just the argument I know and quite literally is in onboarding training I've taken.
Definitely not.
1. I am not fond of drinking with workmates. An occasional, incidental, one-on-one or not much more: OK. In groups ("teams"): no thanks, this isn't school, we are not students, so no pseudo school party.
2. I abhor having drinks with people who have any kind of hierarchical power upon me.
Funny thing is the opposite isn't great either. I've seen a startup that likes doing this. Except all the decision-makers are in SF, not at the field office. So HH at the field office means none of the participants have any real power to see your passion, hear your ideas, or conversely for you to learn from their wisdom. It is still bonding for the team, but the team site is all terminal dead-end jobs.
My experience has been that the opportunity to actually learn from people’s wisdom has little to do with their heirarchical position, though the opportunity to suck up by making a show of “learning from their wisdom” might.
What makes you think I want to even have one drink of alcohol?
It's fine that some teams of workers socialize, and are expected to socialize.
It's fine for teams to select for people who will socially mesh with the office culture.
Nobody here is wrong; just work at a company where the culture fits what you want. Not everybody wants or needs the same thing.
I love working on a team. I don't want to spend my free time with them. That's what my friends are for.
Sometimes people from the team become friends that I spend time with outside of work, but that's on my terms not my employers.
It really seems like many people do not have any kind of healthy boundary with their employer.
Worse, later they claim they would never do such a thing.
I know I like to drink.
There are people who don't like to drink and there are people who are not allowed to drink due to their believe/health problem. And they are not minority-minority in some places
Heaven forbid my first meal of the day is lunch and not breakfast.
People who have "normal" eating habits just can't understand.
I find these kinds of social outings shitty because I'm invariably left out, asked why I'm left out, and now we're talking about my health issues. Politely declining is never met as well as you'd like it to be (people always insist), so either I forcefully decline so as to avoid option #2 (and people think I'm an asshole); or I take option #2 and talk about it, and am now sad because it sucks and will never stop sucking and I don't really like bringing it up.
Then, the following script: everyone gives the minimum pity, commensurate with social niceties. At least two people tell me about their experiences with food intolerances (not even remotely the same thing) and how they got over it (which is not possible with adult-developed food allergies), or they suggest that it's leaky-gut (not scientifically-proven to exist; god knows I've looked into it regardless), or suggest acupuncture, or some other pseudoscience bullshit. Now I get to either choose to tumble head-first into yet another unpaid lecture on the nuances of food allergies, and perhaps inform them as to why what they're suggesting isn't scientifically sound (which is bound to offend, no matter how nicely I say it, because pseudoscience and pop-science is believed with near-religious fervor; the best I'm gonna get is "agree to disagree," so it's not worth it). Or -- my preferred choice nowadays -- I nod and smile and thank them for their novel, sage advice, and tell them I'll be sure to contact the homeopath they suggested first thing tomorrow, as I'm sure that, finally, now, thanks to their intervention, my nightmare is about to come to an end.
At this point, an uncomfortable amount of people are listening to me. I mumble something about "and..uh...yeah." Someone stumbles to change the subject, the wheels of conversation spin in the mud for a while before finally getting back to normal -- and everyone subtly ignores me for the rest of the night, lest I bring down the mood or suck the air out of the room again.
I've been through this song and dance so many times, I'm completely over it and now just avoid it altogether. Which sucks, because now you're the social pariah that never wants to hang out (because virtually all social gatherings revolve around food). I want nothing more than to enjoy good food and drink with my friends and peers and to be happy and merry and well-fed and buzzed. That used to be my element.
It's a touchy subject, because prior to age 30, I was the biggest "foodie" and craft beer freak you've ever met. Finding a new restaurant or trying something I'd never eaten before was literally my favorite activity, period. I was legendary for my weight-to-ability-to-pound-food ratio (I've always been a stick).
Now, it's rice and chicken (no spices!) from here to the grave. Washed down with water, and nothing but. Coffee in the morning is fine -- thankfully, I'm not yet allergic to that (no OJ, though).
I hate that my best option is "lie and smile" -- saying "I'm not hungry" (when I'm actually starving, made worse by watching everyone else eat and enjoy the camaraderie that only a shared meal can bring, slowly losing blood sugar and trying in vain to combat the moodiness that always accompanies it); or "I need to wake up early" (as an excuse for no drinks; otherwise some asshole pressures you to drink anyway or someone across the table gives you a knowing nod, thinking they've found another fellow AA attendee, which now you'll be talking about later).
And because it smells pretty bad socially to ask for that Happy Hour "compensation" be paid in another way ("hey, mind giving me a check for the money you would've spent on my meal and drinks?" will obviously never fly), I'm now just getting literally paid less than everyone else, and getting left out, and being labelled a social pariah no matter which of the above paths I take.
It sucks.
Life and people are infinitely complex and varied, and those of us reluctantly pushed outside of the mainstream normal are constantly fighting to simply be understood, let alone to not have the only choices thrust upon us be ridiculed.
Would you go bowling with me? Could we play cricket in a nearby field? Can we sing karaoke? Would it be better or worse if our coworkers were drunk while singing?
But a more valuable answer has less to do with me personally and more to do with people with tons of food allergies in general:
-We are probably down to invite you over and cook for you. Just be prepared for stuff with lots of alternatives, or somewhat strange dishes. That said, I can eat steak and potatoes, so I'm always down to grill.
-If we go do a thing, like bowling, understand that the time might be a little earlier or later than we'd like, because I might want to eat first or duck out early to go home to eat. I can get by if I bring snacks, but unfortunately there just aren't many non-perishable snacks that I can eat.
-Day trips tend to be limited since I can't just grab food somewhere. Same deal as above applies. This is honestly the worst. I miss just heading out somewhere for a long day on the weekend, getting brunch, then dinner, then ice cream...man. The freedom is incredible.
It's never a simple analysis. I don't mind working more for a deadline if I recognize a tangible increase in revenue or cost savings, as I benefit from the stock.
"Gave away" is an interesting term. In our company, stock is 10-40% of our compensation, so it aligns our motives in a way that folks without stock don't have.
I'm fairly senior, but since I don't work in sales nor in some strategy aspect of the business, I don't "make the stock go up." I can get more stock as a pat on the head if I'm a good boy, at the end of the year, but generally 95% of the company is waiting for the stock to vest and let the stock go up by itself.
Senior companies at my company think people will work harder if they have stock because they "want to make the stock go up." This is false. Great company, false premise nonetheless.
Is it a publicly listed company? If not, how do you mitigate or incorporate the risk of being diluted and/or not being able to cash out?
I have a friend who gets part of his compensation as stock, but the company is not publicly traded. There's the vesting part, which he knows upfront, but the worst of it is that the valuation seems somewhat arbitrary, and he can't sell when he likes.
Now I understand they give the same valuation to everyone, as estimated by some third-party, but the issue is that even after the vesting period, he's not able to sell his stocks as he pleases if he needs the money. There's a pretty convoluted process, where he basically can only do this once a year and has to let someone know (don't know the specifics) ahead of time that he's looking to sell.
Good. You'll have to think harder to find ways not to overwork your team in the first place.
This attitude towards workers rubs me the wrong way, but your side note saved you in my eyes:
> Working long hours is bad
Yes! Overworking people and then saying "thanks" by exploiting the fact ("using the chance", as you put it) that you locked them into the office isn't exactly fair. If this is what people mean by happy hour, that's absurd. If they chose to stay for social stuff after a normal day of work, that's of course another thing.
Growing up, I always loved getting to see people from school / school clubs (e.g. FSAE team, photography, etc) out of the normal context. It really opens up relationships and helps you figure out how to work better as a team.
If someone's not there because they don't want anything to do with work after hours, it's hard to treat them fairly -- the people who do show up are going to start viewing them as an outsider, and they might get passed up on promotion for someone that the higher-ups got to know better after office hours. So, objectively, having a happy hour probably tends to punish the people that don't show up, turning it into a mandatory function. I'd never really thought about it that way.
That said, I'd still prefer to have them.
For what it’s worth I was remote starting a couple years before the pandemic. I can’t wait to go back in at least a couple days a week. I can’t wait to spend time with my coworkers in some capacity.
Heck, most of the newly remote have only been doing so for twelve months; wait until your life has been one context for 3 years. It becomes quite brutal.
I've done similar, but in local restaurants during working hours. It's unfair to implicitly demand your team to donate free time, regardless how much you believe they should enjoy and appreciate it.
That aside, virtual options have come pretty close for us. Give everyone a budget to arrange their own food and either organize activities/games that your team will enjoy or just hang out.
We all enjoyed it because it meant getting time off work and having a nice meal without giving up family time.
You could replicate that by ordering a nice lunch to be delivered to everyone's house and enjoying the meal together remotely.
I work hard to have my own life, outside of work. I don't work hard to be rewarded with a single expensive meal with booze paid for.
I don't even drink anyways.
I have had the pleasurable working in a team where bonding is simply working toward a common goal. This was an extremely cohesive team. Our main motivation of working long hour was to push the company to a more beneficial position so that we are also benefited from it.
The reward is the good result of the work itself and going home/out knowing that it will benefit us in the future.
The experience was almost like playing a co-op game rather than doing typical office work.
Happy hours and additional recreational activity were a way to regulate stress rather than a main reward.
Of course this is pretty unique, and is a rare thing to happen, especially in big companies where profit and work rather detached.
Outside of meetings, yes we had banters. We were nerds, so we conversed about nerdy things, which sometimes are spin-offs of our works. Another it was about food because who don't love food?
The workplace was a small open-plan office, 27 desk max in that room. When stressed and needing someone to talk to, I would see if anyone didnot have earphones on and are not working. I guess that was the "busy"/"not busy" signal.
> Some places make it very hard to bond during work hours.
I guess yeah, moreover if there are physical or procedural separator between people.
Also, I realized I don't feel the same atmosphere once we grew into a larger company with varying prople with varying interests. I guess it was a niche kind of thing.
Maybe something like "We're playing hooky today, folks. We're all going to lunch and...we're not coming back to the office afterward."
Working extra hours is not to be expected and should be valued. A team probably works better when extra effort is valued. I think it is great, that you are trying to thank your employees / coworkers.
I think there might not be the perfect reward/thank you for everyone.
There is actually.
It's called big stacks of money.
Oddly, companies don't seem to want to reward people with it, the one universal thing that basically everyone could appreciate and is the entire reason anyone works anywhere in the first place.
Crazy. It's almost like playing relatively small amounts for a big expensive catered meal saves the company way more money than rewarding people with meaningful sums of money would.
1. historically low wage growth 2. historically high difference between CEO and salaried employee wage 3. billions in dividends
How can people not see this as an issue?
I get that there were people who appreciated these, but not everyone does. It is one more added duty after you have already done a lot.
And they seem incapable of understanding that other people have better things to do than get wasted at a bar with their coworkers on a weeknight, even if the company is paying for it.
On the flip side, work is a big part of your life and it shouldn't be 100% of you life. It's good to have relationships and commitments outside of work. Finding this balance is hard and different for everyone.
When you say reward people for working hard on something, you don't mean the same night, do you? That sounds like possibly fun for extroverts and no fun at all for everyone else.
There is nothing nice, personal, or thoughtful about a photograph of my coworkers.
As a manager, I would expect to be laughed at (with a healthy team, to my face; with a dysfunctional team, behind my back) for such an idea.
100's of other CEO's and managers who have bought and rebought from us think otherwise, and have had incredibly positive feedback from their teams.
But instead of assume the creative tastes of your team, or project yours, why not just simply ask them what they think?
YMMV.
My teams are more skeptical of corporate gestures. As the culmination of a week-long offsite in an exotic locale, a candid team photo might be a welcome commemoration. Anything more artificial would be artificial.
PS: It's customary to disclose your relationship when plugging your own business, here on HN. I did not realize you had a vested interest in your opinion. Again, good luck with customers of other dispositions than ours!
EDIT: For MacOS, I found this: https://github.com/kyleneideck/BackgroundMusic
Do you really think merely having your name show up as one of 35 attendees in Zoom is really going to positively affect your career?
I used to be worried about things like face time and "they'll notice I'm gone" but I gave that worry up. I guarantee at most companies it's really not a big deal. No VP goes back to his office after a meeting and says to himself "Hmm, DroneEngineer43318 was not silently sitting at my meeting. I must ensure he doesn't get promoted next cycle!". If you're not presenting or need the information, nobody is going to care that you're absent.
There you have per application volume control
I use this to tune windows system sounds all the way down, and content up. Or balancing audio levels of different apps when they don't have good in-app controls on level (increasingly rare).
Yep. Enough of that bullshit already.
> Currently working from home gives me all of that and I haven't been happier with a job ever.
Same here!