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Comment by mcantelon | Hacker News Reader

>it is really more of a tantrum than a crisis, since the Greeks know perfectly well they are on the hook for the money they spent on themselves

The Greeks didn't know the gov was in debt because Goldman Sachs colluded with corrupt government officials to hide the debt[1]. They have ample reason for a "tantrum" against their corrupt government.

[1] http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00....

Goldman Sachs has made a good business out of contributing to, and capitalizing on the, collapse of countries by corrupting their officials (Greece, Russia, the US). In my opinion, they should be treated like a dangerous cult (which is how they operate).

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Come on, have you actually read the article that you quoted? It says that GS helped Greece borrow an additional $1 billion in 2002 by having it assume unrealistic exchange rates. Assuming for the sake of argument that this is completely true, this sum barely passes the threshold of significance in the mismanagement of Greece. The Greeks ran a corrupt, overspending government all by themselves, and they have themselves to blame. Maybe GS evaded half the Greek taxpayers' taxes for them, too?

The main problem with your reasoning is the assumption that the government of Greece is a legitimate democratic representative of its people. If ordinary Greeks had significant power in the political process that shapes the course of their lives, perhaps they would share responsibility, but the fact is that all the critical decisions were made and continue to be made by unelected, unaccountable, extremely wealthy elites. Terming an economically oppressed people's outrage a "tantrum" simply reveals your own bias, conscious or otherwise, in favor of the corrupt establishment, along with a distasteful bit of arrogance.

This isn't about Greeks taking responsibility for themselves, it's about Greeks challenging the rampant criminality of international banks, multinational corporations, and the governments they control. It's the same challenge that faces people in every nation on this earth, and we won't see a truly free and fair global society until every nation's people have overcome it.

So the government is not a legitimate democratic representative of its people? I didn't realize the colonels were still around. Give my regards to Papadopoulos.

On a more serious note, Greece is a wealthy (by world standards), educated, well-informed society. It is open to the world. It has open press, the internet, freedom of assembly. It has elections, and has replaced several governments when it wanted. It has a sophisticated intellectual class, which is perfectly capable of articulating ideas about social structure to the people. Can you tell me what more, exactly, does Greece need to become responsible for whatever is done on its behalf?

What you wrote in another message - "why pay taxes to a government that you feel doesn't represent you" - is the biggest thing that's wrong. You have to pay taxes because it's the law, and the government is the government, until you vote the next one in. If everyone evades taxes until the government does exactly as he wants, nobody will ever pay taxes.

Oh, and the Greeks are not "oppressed", economically or otherwise. You'd think they were being forced to toil in salt mines and fed gruel.

So you think America has a wonderful democracy too? We're wealthy, we have a constitution, we have a sophisticated (well...) intellectual class, and yet my taxes are still used to murder impoverished people around the world, support autocrats, make Goldman Sachs executives rich. But I suppose that's what we voted for after all, right?!

Greece may have a more democratic government than Saudi Arabia. That doesn't mean its people's interests are represented. They may be one of the more open and prosperous societies in the world, but even the most open and prosperous are run primarily for the benefit of special interests. I didn't think that was controversial.

"What you wrote in another message - "why pay taxes to a government that you feel doesn't represent you" - is the biggest thing that's wrong. You have to pay taxes because it's the law, and the government is the government, until you vote the next one in. If everyone evades taxes until the government does exactly as he wants, nobody will ever pay taxes."

You seem to believe that a government is legitimate simply because it is in power. To me this is both a spineless and a dangerous position. Every third world dictator hosts sham elections and of course they use your exact argument when their people complain. "But we have elections! We have parliament! If you don't like the course we are on, you are free to change it at the polls." The first world is more sophisticated in its deceptions, but the outcome is similar: the government is run for the benefit of powerful interests at the expense of the people, and election law is carefully manipulated to maintain this state of affairs. Intelligent, ethical people will reject this ruse. Legitimacy must be earned.

"You'd think they were being forced to toil in salt mines and fed gruel."

I suppose it's very easy for you to spout your trite little sarcasms from a position of comfort and privilege. Let them eat cake!

Yeah, you've got a pretty good democracy in America. The reason that it seems like it's always "more of the same, no matter who you vote for" is that the government actually has external constraints on what it does. Bush did a lot of the unpopular things that he did because he couldn't find a better way, not because he has a heart of pure evil (hard as that can be to accept). So Obama comes in and starts doing a lot of the same things, and people are surprised.

> You seem to believe that a government is legitimate simply because it is in power.

No, go ahead and overthrow dictatorships, but it you've got a government that you voted for, with a constitution that you approved, kindly follow the law. And elect another government if you want.

> I suppose it's very easy for you to spout your trite little sarcasms from a position of comfort and privilege. Let them eat cake!

You do realize there is no shortage of cake in Greece, let alone a shortage of bread? But, whatever. The oppressed masses shall rise up and throw off the chains of their class enemy, and then retire at 45! Or how about "workers of the world, unite and claim your union patronage appointments!!" Hey, these are catchy. "Burn down a bank, teach a lesson to the capitalist bloodsuckers who financed your house!!"

>What you wrote in another message - "why pay taxes to a government that you feel doesn't represent you" - is the biggest thing that's wrong. You have to pay taxes because it's the law, and the government is the government, until you vote the next one in.

The upper classes are the worst tax avoiders. It's unrealistic to expect the lower/middle classes of the Western world to pay higher taxes and get less.

From talking to Greeks, is seems that tax avoidance is a way of life for everyone from barbers and mechanics to doctors and homebuilders. Maybe the very lowest income brackets are not in on it, but it's definitely not just the billionaires and the evil globalized megacorps that everyone loves to hate.

So there was no tax evasion by ordinary greeks? Only by wealthy elites? Not sure about that.

Not saying it doesn't happen, but at least here in the good 'ole USA, it's actually fairly difficult to cheat when you are in 1040EZ territory, at least not without being really, really obvious.

On the other hand, once you start getting on the high end of things, you have multiple sources of income, some real-estate, stocks, etc... you have to hire an expert, and even then, it's something of an iffy thing; Even if you are trying to be honest, an audit is to be feared. The tax law is so complex that they usually find errors no matter how hard you try to get it right.

So yeah, I think it's fair to to say that tax evasion is a rich man's crime.

What's the use of paying taxes to a corrupt government that wastes your money and doesn't represent your interests? Tax evasion is symptom of deeper problems in this case, not a root cause.

The government did not waste the money, it gave too much to too many railroad workers, civil servants, teachers that now protest against the government that gave it money it didn't have in the first place.

And no, debt is not the root cause of tax evasion, tax evasion results in less money for the government so it borrows more and takes on more dept.

"The Greeks didn't know the gov was in debt"

Actually, it's been public knowledge since 2004 that Greece has been cooking the books: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/0...

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