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Aw man, I just started a comment saying how this sounds really promising and was going to ask about it. Turns out I have actually read them. I might have to read them all again. I would recommend them as well.

I'm a big fan of the Malazan series as well. I still think of the hair jacket when I come across someone with a smelly jacket and it never fails to crack me up.

My recommendation for epic fantasy that is a bit different and unexpected: The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. Some very powerful stories in there. The first book is pretty short so it is a good way to try it out. Though I think it hooks from the very start.

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Brandon Sanderson is my go to recommendation for fantasy nowadays. Mistborn is a great place to start but The Way of Kings is the real meat and potatoes. He also links all these books together in the same universe and it's fun to notice the connections.

I haven't heard of these, thanks for the recommendation! According to Wikipedia he hasn't finished writing them yet. Is it worth reading them already or does it feel unfinished?

It's not clear from a quick glance, Mistborn and The Way of Kings take place in the same universe?

I'd say it's worth it to start now. Sanderson is writing at a blistering pace right now and doesn't seem to be slowing down.

Mistborn and Way of Kings are in the same universe but separate worlds. I don't want to spoil too much but there is some crossover involved.

Makes sense, thanks! I appreciate the non-spoiler. These days I don't even read the description on the back of books anymore to try and experience it openly. It just makes it a bit hard to work out where to start sometimes.

>Is it worth reading them already or does it feel unfinished?

Mistborn is a complete trilogy although he continues to publish other novels set in the same world.

Way of Kings is ongoing. It's on book four now. Each book is over a thousand pages so there's a lot there. I don't think it's a problem to start. Books 1-3 are great and stand alone pretty well. It's started to drag with book 4 in my opinion. Like so many other huge epic fantasies, it has too many characters, too many plotlines, too huge of a world, and it's difficult to maintain the epic feel with all that sprawl. I'm worried for book 5.

> Mistborn and The Way of Kings take place in the same universe?

They take place in the same universe (literally) but they are on different worlds. So they don't have anything (much?) to do with each other (yet?)

Thanks for the details! Mistborn is going on my list to read next.

There's another Sanderson Cosmere book called Warbreaker which crosses over with Stormlight pretty heavily from book 2 onwards (it's also very possibly there are references in book 1 which totally passed me by). You'll definitely have a better handle on why a particular object which shows up in the Stormlight books is so scary if you read Warbreaker first.

Book 4 of Stormlight does have some pretty big references to the original Mistborn trilogy, too.

On the whole I try to read books in the order I bought them (ish), but Sanderson is one of the authors I'll just drop everything for when a new book comes out. Disclaimer: he does have some bad habits (mainly inserting "wise ass" characters who don't fit the tone or setting, and who I strongly suspect carry the author's voice a little _too_ directly). But he does epic world building incredibly well, and very different to just about any other author I've read. He also writes action exceptionally well.

Warbreaker is a very amateurish effort though - I think a lot of people would bounce off it. I'd definitely suggest starting with Way of Kings, if that grabs a new reader then they can delve into the Cosmere before continuing on to Words of Radiance.

Same universe -- the Cosmere. But we really are talking about "universe" here. Different planets (galaxies?) that know nothing about each other, just happen to share some laws of nature (and some mysterious characters that seem to travel around). I don't even pick up on most of the connections without having them pointed out to me.

Stormlight Archive is 10 books in two 5 book arcs. 4th book is out now, 5th book will be out in 3 years. So probably a decent time to get into Stormlight. (Sanderson makes a schedule for each of his projects and has an incredible talent for hitting his targets.)

Different solar systems. And they definitely know about each other. Or at least, there are factions and individuals present in each system who do.

His first book Elantris is also very good and well worth your time. A good starting point for his work and a self-contained novel (although he had mentioned writing two more Elantris books in the distant future).

I see, noted as well. Thanks!

The Emperor's Soul is set on the same world as Elantris, though is more or less completely unconnected to it.

FYI - Robin Hobb is a lady.

Since GP is talking about Elantris it's safe to say the "he" in this case is Brandon Sanderson and not Robin Hobb.

quite correct, I was referring to Brandon, not Robin

Ah sorry, my bad.

I'm reading Rhythm of War (Stormlight Archive Book 4) just now, and am really enjoying the Stormlight series - the "split personality" of Shallan is really interesting, and I'm enjoying Shadesmar much more than I did in Oathbringer.

A friend of mine once joked about hacker news that "if you mention any author, within three comments someone will recommend a Sanderson book."

I appreciated the joke without taking it too literally. But here we are.

That happens on /r/books too. They're also obsessed with Stephen King, so I've just assumed Sanderson is also an airport novel writer.

I don't know what 'airport novel writer' means, but Sanderson comes up with some really inventive worlds and the magic in his fantasy setting has a high degree of internal consistency that really resonates with some people. His writing is also approachable in the sense that it isn't full of references to other books that are required reading in order to understand a passage. If you've got a working knowledge of the english language and maybe a dictionary you can approach the story on its own merits.

Yeah "high degree of internal consistency" and "approachable" are things I want in a test suite not a novel.

At the risk of being downvoted I don't find Brandon Sanderson a very good fantasy writer. For me, The way of kings started well (even if the characters were all pretty 2-D) in book one. Interesting plot with it mixing ww1/dune computer game themes in a fantasy setting. But by book 3 it was an incredible chore to get through and I stopped after about 10% in. I even got bored reading the plot summary of the third book. I guess it wasnt dark enough for me. But I know other like it.

The king killer chronicles however. e.g. The name of the wind. I really like this book series.

Too bad you will never see the end of The King Killer Chronicles. It has been something like 10 years since the last book. Rothfuss is in the exact same situation as Martin for me. I won't buy any books of his until the series is complete.

You may not like Sanderson's writing, but the man publishes books. He will get my money for anything he writes because I know I'm going to enjoy it (personally, I really enjoy his books) and I know he's going to complete what he starts.

Unfortunately, I agree with you. The stone door I've almost given up on. And I was reading GOT way before it became famous on TV. Again stopped expecting a new book. He's passed away now. But I did quite like the British fantasy writer David Gemell. He knocked out books too. His books are violent and personally I like dark and gritty.

Check out Mark Lawrence if you like dark and gritty. He's pretty good at knocking out books as well.

Also, you've probably heard of it already but The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie

"Personally I like dark and gritty." On the offchance you haven't given Joe Abercrombie a try, you really ought to.

I read "He's passed away now" and associated it with Martin. Your full-stop almost made me lose my shit.

I absolutely inhaled the first two books by Rothfuss, couldn't put 'em down, this was last year. Then I read up on when the last book would come out, and saw it had been over 10 years between the 2nd book coming out and present day.

Then I started reading about Patrick Rothfuss. I don't think I'll ever read the 3rd book if he ever does actually write it. Yes write, all indications are he hasn't written a page. I have lost whatever respect I have had for the guy. If he has a legitimate reason as to why he has kept his "fans" waiting for over a decade, he should say it. This reasoning is bullshit. [1] I would 100% understand if he said something like "I'm under a lot of pressure and I have anxiety and writers block" or something to that effect. Nope, he just completely checked out.

Maybe I'll read the Wikipedia summary if it ever exists.

[1] https://winteriscoming.net/2020/12/04/patrick-rothfuss-expla...

The books are absolutely jam-packed with detail, foreshadowing, reference and masterful writing (have you noticed Felurian speaks in Iambic pentameter?). I think he has just written himself into a combinatorial explosion of a corner.

Kingkiller is like the Lost of epic fantasy: at first you're drawn in by all the detail and mystique, but later you realize that he's just making it up as he goes. It's super easy to open compelling and interesting threads (e.g. what is the smoke monster and who are the Chandrian) but its much, much harder to close them.

Maybe he has the exact issues you mentioned but doesnt want to release that information into the world. Despite you saying you would understand many wouldnt.

Does the man owe you anything?

Yes, I believe he does in fact owe his readership something. Me? No. I'm not longer part of that group.

What? What does someone who created something you enjoyed and then stopped creating more of that thing owe anyone? An explanation?

He has been stringing his fans along for over a decade. It is rude and cruel. It would be like teasing a puppy with a treat but never giving it to them. For 10 years. That is what he has done. His editor disagrees with me [1] but makes an equally strong point.

[1] https://i.redd.it/4g1jexk7i9e51.jpg

I guess if grown adults are akin to puppies for you in this situation and the writer is cruel and rude for not writing another book then we see things too differently to agree in any meaningful way.

https://winteriscoming.net/2021/05/12/kingkiller-author-patr...

I rest my case. He's a jackass.

Fans have invested in a story. They started a book, got a second book, got a couple short stories and promises of a 3rd book. No 3rd book has arrived to complete the story.

If he had said "sorry, no book 3, it's just done now" years ago, or even now, then that changes expectations. But if he's just going to avoid it all then ya, that's kind of a bad thing to do to your fans.

I’ve just been assuming that Sanderson will step up to finish those series when the original authors pass.

It's a good joke. Unfortunately Sanderson's writing style is really incompatible with Rothfuss and Martin's. Also, he has his own epic series that will occupy him for another 20 years.

Totally agree. I love his lectures on writing which you can find on YouTube. He's a great teacher with excellent content. But great teachers aren't always the best writers.

I decided to try the Mistborn trilogy. The first book was great - a nice tight and satisfying story. But the second and third books got progressively messier and I found myself totally disconnected and eventually just slogging through to the end. I wish I would have stopped after the first book.

Sanderson admits loving to write write write and hating to rewrite and edit, which I think really showed in the latter books of the trilogy.

I had the same reaction to the Mistborn books, and my interpretation is that Sanderson really struggles when the plot and characters get "wide". The first book was tight and focused; when the characters graduated to a larger stage everything - from the characters to the world to the plot - ended up "flat" and unrealistic. It's like he has a set budget for any given work, and the wider the focus the less of that budget any individual piece gets.

Which is a shame, because some of his work really is excellent.

I don't know if it's that Sanderson is a bad writer; I think it's more that he's a bad editor. He is so prolific that he doesn't take the time to cut his books down to the length they should be, which is probably about half the length.

Every single novel I've read by him (All of mistborn, 1st 3 Way of Kings, Elantris) has egregious pacing problems. Way too much repetitive exposition that doesn't move the story along.

Arcanum Unbounded is actually pretty good, probably because it's all short stories and doesn't have time to get lost)

Skyward is a great light read by him, but note that it’s sci-fi, not fantasy.

Sanderson got too big too fast to develop a relationship with an editor who could say "no" to him. He's built fascinating worlds and interesting characters, but his later writing is full of the kinds of tropes and flaws that an empowered editor would be pushing him hard to streamline:

- Dialogue from adults that has the emotional intelligence of a 12-year old

- Lots of telling, almost no showing. So much "X, the kind of person who takes no bullshit from anyone, says, 'hi'".

- Huge, dragging, Return-of-the-Jedi-style setpiece battles and fights that have no bearing on the plot outcome

- Plots that just repeat on a larger scale with every book in a series.

Dude needs someone who has the ability to say no to him. With the amount he writes though, I have to imagine it's basically a DDOS for anyone tasked with editing his work.

Well, he did a decent job ending Wheel of Time which had that problem but much worse, since it was edited by the guy's wife. Unlike RJ, Sanderson actually knows where he's going and tries to get there on schedule.

It was only decent though. I thought he made some very artificial uses of the magic system that didn't seem to fit in the world but just let him keep the series on track. Also, RJ wasn't the best at writing women but Sanderson is a total square and so the romantic/personal relationships were not really there.

Interestingly, the part of his books I liked the most was entirely original (Aviendha's future vision), and the one I thought was the worst written (Tower of Ghenjei) was an attempt to keep an RJ alpha plot that RJ probably would've abandoned.

At least Robert Jordan could write dialogue and inter-personal relationships that don't stink of middle school.

RJ thought of himself as a "Southern gentleman" and so he had critical levels of boomer gender politics in all his dialogue, essentially 1000 pages of "I hate my wife" jokes and braid tugging. Also, not sure how many people noticed but more than a few plot points and things like Compulsion weaves in his books are clearly just his sexual fetishes.

But yes, there was a lot of depth and the women were always strong characters and seemed to be having fun, whereas Sanderson writes like he hasn't gone through puberty yet.

I should note I'm not defending Robert Jordan's pseudo-neckbeard views on women, just his ability to write humans.

As a lifelong video game player, I get a strong video game vibe from his works. I think he tells engaging/energetic stories, he makes some nice complex systems and worlds, but the writing isn't particularly well structured, can drag on, and has some characters who definitely seem designed to appeal to teenage boys. Which all in all I don't mind, when I'm tired sometimes I just want a nice story where I never have to read a page twice.

I like Sanderson, I really do, but I wish he would aim for a bit more brevity. He has a really interesting story to tell, and built an incredibly creative world, but it's like he gets distracted by all the other stories he would like to tell. Just like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, Way of Kings seems to get slower with each book as more subplots are developed and explored.

But I think my biggest complaint about Way of Kings is that the characters often make such frustrating decisions. The fate of the world is at stake and people are petty, self-absorbed, secretive, and sullen. Maybe that's reality, but it's so frustrating to read sub-plots that drag out for hundreds of pages simply because people won't communicate.

I miss, to some degree, books like King's Gunslinger and Moorcock's Elric, that could tell a story in ~200 pages. Or even the TSR pulp fantasy books of the 80's which all seemed to be 300-400 pages. Now everything is super-sized, but I don't feel like I'm getting more "story", I'm getting in-depth descriptions of clothing and internal monologues on what to cook for dinner.

Despite that critique, I still recommend Way of Kings (and Wheel of Time!). Just flip through the filler.

Moorcook's Eldrich... Wait! I read Hawkmoon years ago by him and liked it. A light breezy read. I'll get this. Cheers

> Just like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, Way of Kings seems to get slower with each book as more subplots are developed and explored.

Heh, now that's ironic, knowing what happened to the WoT: Jordan[1] died before he could finish it, and years later another author stepped in and finished it based on Jordan's notes. That other author was... Brandon Sanderson. So one would think he'd know the dangers of creating too big a sprawl.

(Also: Take heed, GRRM!)

___

[1]: Actually Oliver Rigney, IIRC.

> my biggest complaint about Way of Kings is that the characters often make such frustrating decisions

I find the decisions are often not predictable, which I think for some can be a turnoff because things don't go the way you expect/want them to. I find this a strength.

I was gifted a copy of Mistborn by Sanderson and I've been having trouble reading. The first handful of chapters dragged for me, so I put it down in favor or something else. I think you point about flat characters is what did it for me; I believe good characters can carry a mediocre story, but a story has to be really exceptional to carry a narrative with uninteresting characters.

I am hoping to give it another shot this summer, but I can't exactly say I am looking forward to it.

Brandon Sanderson is a terrific author when he completes another author's series. He is more lyrical when he is forced to adopt another author's style. Otherwise its paint-by-numbers fantasy.

The Dark Tower is one of my favorites, probably because King doesn't feel constrained by convention or genre. And if you have read King's other works you will appreciate the connections to his universe throughout, particularly The Stand and Salem's Lot.

Like others have said, the first 2 books are particularly good. But, be warned that the second book deals with a lot of racial and sexual issues, and King does not have a filter. The fourth book is a prequel, and really stands on its own as a novel, but really threw off the rhythm of the series for me. I had a hard time getting into it because I wanted to resume the primary storyline. The ending does come with a warning, but I think it was perfect.

If we’re recommending series in general, I recommend the Broken Earth Trilogy be NK Jemisin and The Poppy War series by RF Kuang. These series have a completely different approach to fantasy as a lens of society that I really adore.

I’m also a big fan of the Daevabod Series by SA Chakraborty. That is also hella.

In The Dark Tower, only first two books are good. Third is decent, the rest I've read only because I'm a very stubborn person.

Very true! King disliked this series and only finished it because of fan insistence... And the ending is a middle finger to those fans!

Personal opinion I guess. I really liked the whole series, including the ending.

"The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. Some very powerful stories in there. The first book is pretty short so it is a good way to try it out. Though I think it hooks from the very start. "

I wasn't really hooked. I think it was a interesting read, but I got no motivation to read further. Might have been, because I read a note from King before, that he also did no knew yet, how the tower worked. And he just wrote freely to explore it, too. So I expected the story to have even bigger holes in the plot than his ordinary books and trouble to get the story lines together in a consistent way in the end, leaving too many logic errors.

But maybe I should give the tower a second try one day.

Hmmm, if the beginning wasn't convincing then I somewhat doubt that the rest of the series is going to be a much better experience. And yeah, I don't think the tower mechanics really work out in the end. But it didn't bother me personally.

I haven't actually read any other books by him.

"I haven't actually read any other books by him. "

He's very good at coming up with creative plots and good storytelling - but after a while it all seems generic and kind of the same - and he is not good (or doesn't bother enough as people buy it anyway) to avoid lots of plotholes in the stories and logic gaps. Or rather to bring the story lines together in the end, he seems to use ductape.

So I enjoyed his short stories much more, as they were much more consistent, than the big, blown up "masterworks" of him.

I read the first book and like you thought it was just interesting, but it was the juxtaposition of book one and two that made me go “i have to finish this”.

* not really a spoiler, it happens at the very start of book two [rot13] *

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some bits are a drag, some are so cheezy, but you just roll with it and it’s a fun ride with some amazing high points.

I'll just rot13 this and anyone who's interested will decode it in less time that it takes me to type it - why, most fellows here will just move each char thirteen to the left in their head...

I love HN

I enjoyed the first book in that series so much that after the first time I read it I immediately started it again. But every other book in the series was a disappointment compared to that. They all seemed to fall much more into his generic style.

I need to revisit The Dark Tower, I last read it when it was incomplete and have never read it through. Very different to his more famous works. Thanks for the reminder.

Depending on where you stopped, I feel like it is gets a little bit odd in the middle but it is very much worth reading to the end.

There's also The Wind Through the Keyhole which slots inbetween the main books. Learning about this one is that made me read the whole series again only a few weeks ago. It's still as good as it ever was!

Not worth reading to the end at all. King didn't even think of a proper ending, prefacing it with a suggestion to stop reading before it. The series got weaker and weaker after second book.

The series did deteriorate, but I liked book 4. It's a romance. I recommend it to all young fools, or those who can fondly remember being such.

Story of young roland is... Too formulaic. Writing romance is definitely not king's forte.

Agreed. I feel like the whole series very much appeals to young teenage me.

For people who like the character driven nature of Robin Hobb's work I'd recommend the Demon Cycle books by Peter Brett. Across the series you get to see characters from a variety of viewpoints which really fleshes them out as complete people.

I have such mixed feelings about the Demon cycle. I really like the characters and the first book is excellent. However it starts to be the same pattern for the later books and plot deteriorates rapidly as you near the end. Last two books ruined the series for me, I remember reading them during first lockdown last year and being super frustrated the way it ended.

I fell off of Dark Tower during the flashback sequence in the 4th book, but up until that point I agree it was a solid and off-putting story.

Of the last few years, the author I have enjoyed the most has undoubtedly been Joe Abercrombie, especially "The First Law".

Ooo, thanks for the reminder! I very much enjoyed those as well and should dig them out again.

Did you read any of his other books? Would you recommend them?

I was a bit disappointed with the fourth book set in the The First Law universe. Possibly it was Best Served Cold but I'm not sure. It felt more like a rehash and it was missing whatever made the first books special. And it put me off trying his other books ever since.

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