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Robin Hobb is one of my favorite authors. Her masterwork is a series of series (four trilogies and a quadrology) known as The Realm of the Elderlings.

She published the first trilogy, which begins with Assassin's Apprentice, starting in 1995. I saw the books when they first came out and I assumed from the title and the cover that it would be a cheesy fantasy by the numbers, so I never bought it. But I kept hearing about these books from other people who liked SFF, so I finally picked up the first trilogy.

I was completely wrong. It's not at all by the numbers. While it's not trope-free (nothing is), there are all sorts of interesting ideas, from the political to ecological. As you read the later series, the world opens up quite a bit, and it gets even more interesting. The final trilogy brings so many elements together, and the ending is shatteringly powerful.

While this is epic fantasy, it's _not_ at all grimdark. Bad things definitely happen, but it's more hopeful and humane than something like Malazan or Song of Ice and Fire.

I can't recommend these books highly enough. Even if her writing is slowing down, I hope that she's satisfied with what she's done. This series alone is an enormous accomplishment. To build a world across so many books, across so many years, and have it come together so well in the end is massively impressive.

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Aw man, I just started a comment saying how this sounds really promising and was going to ask about it. Turns out I have actually read them. I might have to read them all again. I would recommend them as well.

I'm a big fan of the Malazan series as well. I still think of the hair jacket when I come across someone with a smelly jacket and it never fails to crack me up.

My recommendation for epic fantasy that is a bit different and unexpected: The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. Some very powerful stories in there. The first book is pretty short so it is a good way to try it out. Though I think it hooks from the very start.

Brandon Sanderson is my go to recommendation for fantasy nowadays. Mistborn is a great place to start but The Way of Kings is the real meat and potatoes. He also links all these books together in the same universe and it's fun to notice the connections.

At the risk of being downvoted I don't find Brandon Sanderson a very good fantasy writer. For me, The way of kings started well (even if the characters were all pretty 2-D) in book one. Interesting plot with it mixing ww1/dune computer game themes in a fantasy setting. But by book 3 it was an incredible chore to get through and I stopped after about 10% in. I even got bored reading the plot summary of the third book. I guess it wasnt dark enough for me. But I know other like it.

The king killer chronicles however. e.g. The name of the wind. I really like this book series.

Too bad you will never see the end of The King Killer Chronicles. It has been something like 10 years since the last book. Rothfuss is in the exact same situation as Martin for me. I won't buy any books of his until the series is complete.

You may not like Sanderson's writing, but the man publishes books. He will get my money for anything he writes because I know I'm going to enjoy it (personally, I really enjoy his books) and I know he's going to complete what he starts.

I absolutely inhaled the first two books by Rothfuss, couldn't put 'em down, this was last year. Then I read up on when the last book would come out, and saw it had been over 10 years between the 2nd book coming out and present day.

Then I started reading about Patrick Rothfuss. I don't think I'll ever read the 3rd book if he ever does actually write it. Yes write, all indications are he hasn't written a page. I have lost whatever respect I have had for the guy. If he has a legitimate reason as to why he has kept his "fans" waiting for over a decade, he should say it. This reasoning is bullshit. [1] I would 100% understand if he said something like "I'm under a lot of pressure and I have anxiety and writers block" or something to that effect. Nope, he just completely checked out.

Maybe I'll read the Wikipedia summary if it ever exists.

[1] https://winteriscoming.net/2020/12/04/patrick-rothfuss-expla...

The books are absolutely jam-packed with detail, foreshadowing, reference and masterful writing (have you noticed Felurian speaks in Iambic pentameter?). I think he has just written himself into a combinatorial explosion of a corner.

Kingkiller is like the Lost of epic fantasy: at first you're drawn in by all the detail and mystique, but later you realize that he's just making it up as he goes. It's super easy to open compelling and interesting threads (e.g. what is the smoke monster and who are the Chandrian) but its much, much harder to close them.

Maybe he has the exact issues you mentioned but doesnt want to release that information into the world. Despite you saying you would understand many wouldnt.

Does the man owe you anything?

Yes, I believe he does in fact owe his readership something. Me? No. I'm not longer part of that group.

What? What does someone who created something you enjoyed and then stopped creating more of that thing owe anyone? An explanation?

Fans have invested in a story. They started a book, got a second book, got a couple short stories and promises of a 3rd book. No 3rd book has arrived to complete the story.

If he had said "sorry, no book 3, it's just done now" years ago, or even now, then that changes expectations. But if he's just going to avoid it all then ya, that's kind of a bad thing to do to your fans.

He has been stringing his fans along for over a decade. It is rude and cruel. It would be like teasing a puppy with a treat but never giving it to them. For 10 years. That is what he has done. His editor disagrees with me [1] but makes an equally strong point.

[1] https://i.redd.it/4g1jexk7i9e51.jpg

I guess if grown adults are akin to puppies for you in this situation and the writer is cruel and rude for not writing another book then we see things too differently to agree in any meaningful way.

https://winteriscoming.net/2021/05/12/kingkiller-author-patr...

I rest my case. He's a jackass.

I’ve just been assuming that Sanderson will step up to finish those series when the original authors pass.

It's a good joke. Unfortunately Sanderson's writing style is really incompatible with Rothfuss and Martin's. Also, he has his own epic series that will occupy him for another 20 years.

Unfortunately, I agree with you. The stone door I've almost given up on. And I was reading GOT way before it became famous on TV. Again stopped expecting a new book. He's passed away now. But I did quite like the British fantasy writer David Gemell. He knocked out books too. His books are violent and personally I like dark and gritty.

Check out Mark Lawrence if you like dark and gritty. He's pretty good at knocking out books as well.

Also, you've probably heard of it already but The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie

"Personally I like dark and gritty." On the offchance you haven't given Joe Abercrombie a try, you really ought to.

I read "He's passed away now" and associated it with Martin. Your full-stop almost made me lose my shit.

I like Sanderson, I really do, but I wish he would aim for a bit more brevity. He has a really interesting story to tell, and built an incredibly creative world, but it's like he gets distracted by all the other stories he would like to tell. Just like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, Way of Kings seems to get slower with each book as more subplots are developed and explored.

But I think my biggest complaint about Way of Kings is that the characters often make such frustrating decisions. The fate of the world is at stake and people are petty, self-absorbed, secretive, and sullen. Maybe that's reality, but it's so frustrating to read sub-plots that drag out for hundreds of pages simply because people won't communicate.

I miss, to some degree, books like King's Gunslinger and Moorcock's Elric, that could tell a story in ~200 pages. Or even the TSR pulp fantasy books of the 80's which all seemed to be 300-400 pages. Now everything is super-sized, but I don't feel like I'm getting more "story", I'm getting in-depth descriptions of clothing and internal monologues on what to cook for dinner.

Despite that critique, I still recommend Way of Kings (and Wheel of Time!). Just flip through the filler.

> Just like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, Way of Kings seems to get slower with each book as more subplots are developed and explored.

Heh, now that's ironic, knowing what happened to the WoT: Jordan[1] died before he could finish it, and years later another author stepped in and finished it based on Jordan's notes. That other author was... Brandon Sanderson. So one would think he'd know the dangers of creating too big a sprawl.

(Also: Take heed, GRRM!)

___

[1]: Actually Oliver Rigney, IIRC.

> my biggest complaint about Way of Kings is that the characters often make such frustrating decisions

I find the decisions are often not predictable, which I think for some can be a turnoff because things don't go the way you expect/want them to. I find this a strength.

Moorcook's Eldrich... Wait! I read Hawkmoon years ago by him and liked it. A light breezy read. I'll get this. Cheers

Totally agree. I love his lectures on writing which you can find on YouTube. He's a great teacher with excellent content. But great teachers aren't always the best writers.

I decided to try the Mistborn trilogy. The first book was great - a nice tight and satisfying story. But the second and third books got progressively messier and I found myself totally disconnected and eventually just slogging through to the end. I wish I would have stopped after the first book.

Sanderson admits loving to write write write and hating to rewrite and edit, which I think really showed in the latter books of the trilogy.

I had the same reaction to the Mistborn books, and my interpretation is that Sanderson really struggles when the plot and characters get "wide". The first book was tight and focused; when the characters graduated to a larger stage everything - from the characters to the world to the plot - ended up "flat" and unrealistic. It's like he has a set budget for any given work, and the wider the focus the less of that budget any individual piece gets.

Which is a shame, because some of his work really is excellent.

I was gifted a copy of Mistborn by Sanderson and I've been having trouble reading. The first handful of chapters dragged for me, so I put it down in favor or something else. I think you point about flat characters is what did it for me; I believe good characters can carry a mediocre story, but a story has to be really exceptional to carry a narrative with uninteresting characters.

I am hoping to give it another shot this summer, but I can't exactly say I am looking forward to it.

I don't know if it's that Sanderson is a bad writer; I think it's more that he's a bad editor. He is so prolific that he doesn't take the time to cut his books down to the length they should be, which is probably about half the length.

Every single novel I've read by him (All of mistborn, 1st 3 Way of Kings, Elantris) has egregious pacing problems. Way too much repetitive exposition that doesn't move the story along.

Arcanum Unbounded is actually pretty good, probably because it's all short stories and doesn't have time to get lost)

Sanderson got too big too fast to develop a relationship with an editor who could say "no" to him. He's built fascinating worlds and interesting characters, but his later writing is full of the kinds of tropes and flaws that an empowered editor would be pushing him hard to streamline:

- Dialogue from adults that has the emotional intelligence of a 12-year old

- Lots of telling, almost no showing. So much "X, the kind of person who takes no bullshit from anyone, says, 'hi'".

- Huge, dragging, Return-of-the-Jedi-style setpiece battles and fights that have no bearing on the plot outcome

- Plots that just repeat on a larger scale with every book in a series.

Dude needs someone who has the ability to say no to him. With the amount he writes though, I have to imagine it's basically a DDOS for anyone tasked with editing his work.

Well, he did a decent job ending Wheel of Time which had that problem but much worse, since it was edited by the guy's wife. Unlike RJ, Sanderson actually knows where he's going and tries to get there on schedule.

It was only decent though. I thought he made some very artificial uses of the magic system that didn't seem to fit in the world but just let him keep the series on track. Also, RJ wasn't the best at writing women but Sanderson is a total square and so the romantic/personal relationships were not really there.

Interestingly, the part of his books I liked the most was entirely original (Aviendha's future vision), and the one I thought was the worst written (Tower of Ghenjei) was an attempt to keep an RJ alpha plot that RJ probably would've abandoned.

At least Robert Jordan could write dialogue and inter-personal relationships that don't stink of middle school.

RJ thought of himself as a "Southern gentleman" and so he had critical levels of boomer gender politics in all his dialogue, essentially 1000 pages of "I hate my wife" jokes and braid tugging. Also, not sure how many people noticed but more than a few plot points and things like Compulsion weaves in his books are clearly just his sexual fetishes.

But yes, there was a lot of depth and the women were always strong characters and seemed to be having fun, whereas Sanderson writes like he hasn't gone through puberty yet.

I should note I'm not defending Robert Jordan's pseudo-neckbeard views on women, just his ability to write humans.

As a lifelong video game player, I get a strong video game vibe from his works. I think he tells engaging/energetic stories, he makes some nice complex systems and worlds, but the writing isn't particularly well structured, can drag on, and has some characters who definitely seem designed to appeal to teenage boys. Which all in all I don't mind, when I'm tired sometimes I just want a nice story where I never have to read a page twice.

Skyward is a great light read by him, but note that it’s sci-fi, not fantasy.

Brandon Sanderson is a terrific author when he completes another author's series. He is more lyrical when he is forced to adopt another author's style. Otherwise its paint-by-numbers fantasy.

A friend of mine once joked about hacker news that "if you mention any author, within three comments someone will recommend a Sanderson book."

I appreciated the joke without taking it too literally. But here we are.

That happens on /r/books too. They're also obsessed with Stephen King, so I've just assumed Sanderson is also an airport novel writer.

I don't know what 'airport novel writer' means, but Sanderson comes up with some really inventive worlds and the magic in his fantasy setting has a high degree of internal consistency that really resonates with some people. His writing is also approachable in the sense that it isn't full of references to other books that are required reading in order to understand a passage. If you've got a working knowledge of the english language and maybe a dictionary you can approach the story on its own merits.

Yeah "high degree of internal consistency" and "approachable" are things I want in a test suite not a novel.

I'm reading Rhythm of War (Stormlight Archive Book 4) just now, and am really enjoying the Stormlight series - the "split personality" of Shallan is really interesting, and I'm enjoying Shadesmar much more than I did in Oathbringer.

I haven't heard of these, thanks for the recommendation! According to Wikipedia he hasn't finished writing them yet. Is it worth reading them already or does it feel unfinished?

It's not clear from a quick glance, Mistborn and The Way of Kings take place in the same universe?

Same universe -- the Cosmere. But we really are talking about "universe" here. Different planets (galaxies?) that know nothing about each other, just happen to share some laws of nature (and some mysterious characters that seem to travel around). I don't even pick up on most of the connections without having them pointed out to me.

Stormlight Archive is 10 books in two 5 book arcs. 4th book is out now, 5th book will be out in 3 years. So probably a decent time to get into Stormlight. (Sanderson makes a schedule for each of his projects and has an incredible talent for hitting his targets.)

Different solar systems. And they definitely know about each other. Or at least, there are factions and individuals present in each system who do.

>Is it worth reading them already or does it feel unfinished?

Mistborn is a complete trilogy although he continues to publish other novels set in the same world.

Way of Kings is ongoing. It's on book four now. Each book is over a thousand pages so there's a lot there. I don't think it's a problem to start. Books 1-3 are great and stand alone pretty well. It's started to drag with book 4 in my opinion. Like so many other huge epic fantasies, it has too many characters, too many plotlines, too huge of a world, and it's difficult to maintain the epic feel with all that sprawl. I'm worried for book 5.

> Mistborn and The Way of Kings take place in the same universe?

They take place in the same universe (literally) but they are on different worlds. So they don't have anything (much?) to do with each other (yet?)

There's another Sanderson Cosmere book called Warbreaker which crosses over with Stormlight pretty heavily from book 2 onwards (it's also very possibly there are references in book 1 which totally passed me by). You'll definitely have a better handle on why a particular object which shows up in the Stormlight books is so scary if you read Warbreaker first.

Book 4 of Stormlight does have some pretty big references to the original Mistborn trilogy, too.

On the whole I try to read books in the order I bought them (ish), but Sanderson is one of the authors I'll just drop everything for when a new book comes out. Disclaimer: he does have some bad habits (mainly inserting "wise ass" characters who don't fit the tone or setting, and who I strongly suspect carry the author's voice a little _too_ directly). But he does epic world building incredibly well, and very different to just about any other author I've read. He also writes action exceptionally well.

Warbreaker is a very amateurish effort though - I think a lot of people would bounce off it. I'd definitely suggest starting with Way of Kings, if that grabs a new reader then they can delve into the Cosmere before continuing on to Words of Radiance.

Thanks for the details! Mistborn is going on my list to read next.

I'd say it's worth it to start now. Sanderson is writing at a blistering pace right now and doesn't seem to be slowing down.

Mistborn and Way of Kings are in the same universe but separate worlds. I don't want to spoil too much but there is some crossover involved.

Makes sense, thanks! I appreciate the non-spoiler. These days I don't even read the description on the back of books anymore to try and experience it openly. It just makes it a bit hard to work out where to start sometimes.

His first book Elantris is also very good and well worth your time. A good starting point for his work and a self-contained novel (although he had mentioned writing two more Elantris books in the distant future).

The Emperor's Soul is set on the same world as Elantris, though is more or less completely unconnected to it.

FYI - Robin Hobb is a lady.

Since GP is talking about Elantris it's safe to say the "he" in this case is Brandon Sanderson and not Robin Hobb.

quite correct, I was referring to Brandon, not Robin

Ah sorry, my bad.

I see, noted as well. Thanks!

The Dark Tower is one of my favorites, probably because King doesn't feel constrained by convention or genre. And if you have read King's other works you will appreciate the connections to his universe throughout, particularly The Stand and Salem's Lot.

Like others have said, the first 2 books are particularly good. But, be warned that the second book deals with a lot of racial and sexual issues, and King does not have a filter. The fourth book is a prequel, and really stands on its own as a novel, but really threw off the rhythm of the series for me. I had a hard time getting into it because I wanted to resume the primary storyline. The ending does come with a warning, but I think it was perfect.

If we’re recommending series in general, I recommend the Broken Earth Trilogy be NK Jemisin and The Poppy War series by RF Kuang. These series have a completely different approach to fantasy as a lens of society that I really adore.

I’m also a big fan of the Daevabod Series by SA Chakraborty. That is also hella.

In The Dark Tower, only first two books are good. Third is decent, the rest I've read only because I'm a very stubborn person.

Very true! King disliked this series and only finished it because of fan insistence... And the ending is a middle finger to those fans!

Personal opinion I guess. I really liked the whole series, including the ending.

"The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. Some very powerful stories in there. The first book is pretty short so it is a good way to try it out. Though I think it hooks from the very start. "

I wasn't really hooked. I think it was a interesting read, but I got no motivation to read further. Might have been, because I read a note from King before, that he also did no knew yet, how the tower worked. And he just wrote freely to explore it, too. So I expected the story to have even bigger holes in the plot than his ordinary books and trouble to get the story lines together in a consistent way in the end, leaving too many logic errors.

But maybe I should give the tower a second try one day.

I read the first book and like you thought it was just interesting, but it was the juxtaposition of book one and two that made me go “i have to finish this”.

* not really a spoiler, it happens at the very start of book two [rot13] *

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some bits are a drag, some are so cheezy, but you just roll with it and it’s a fun ride with some amazing high points.

I'll just rot13 this and anyone who's interested will decode it in less time that it takes me to type it - why, most fellows here will just move each char thirteen to the left in their head...

I love HN

I enjoyed the first book in that series so much that after the first time I read it I immediately started it again. But every other book in the series was a disappointment compared to that. They all seemed to fall much more into his generic style.

Hmmm, if the beginning wasn't convincing then I somewhat doubt that the rest of the series is going to be a much better experience. And yeah, I don't think the tower mechanics really work out in the end. But it didn't bother me personally.

I haven't actually read any other books by him.

"I haven't actually read any other books by him. "

He's very good at coming up with creative plots and good storytelling - but after a while it all seems generic and kind of the same - and he is not good (or doesn't bother enough as people buy it anyway) to avoid lots of plotholes in the stories and logic gaps. Or rather to bring the story lines together in the end, he seems to use ductape.

So I enjoyed his short stories much more, as they were much more consistent, than the big, blown up "masterworks" of him.

I need to revisit The Dark Tower, I last read it when it was incomplete and have never read it through. Very different to his more famous works. Thanks for the reminder.

Depending on where you stopped, I feel like it is gets a little bit odd in the middle but it is very much worth reading to the end.

There's also The Wind Through the Keyhole which slots inbetween the main books. Learning about this one is that made me read the whole series again only a few weeks ago. It's still as good as it ever was!

Not worth reading to the end at all. King didn't even think of a proper ending, prefacing it with a suggestion to stop reading before it. The series got weaker and weaker after second book.

The series did deteriorate, but I liked book 4. It's a romance. I recommend it to all young fools, or those who can fondly remember being such.

Story of young roland is... Too formulaic. Writing romance is definitely not king's forte.

Agreed. I feel like the whole series very much appeals to young teenage me.

For people who like the character driven nature of Robin Hobb's work I'd recommend the Demon Cycle books by Peter Brett. Across the series you get to see characters from a variety of viewpoints which really fleshes them out as complete people.

I have such mixed feelings about the Demon cycle. I really like the characters and the first book is excellent. However it starts to be the same pattern for the later books and plot deteriorates rapidly as you near the end. Last two books ruined the series for me, I remember reading them during first lockdown last year and being super frustrated the way it ended.

I fell off of Dark Tower during the flashback sequence in the 4th book, but up until that point I agree it was a solid and off-putting story.

Of the last few years, the author I have enjoyed the most has undoubtedly been Joe Abercrombie, especially "The First Law".

Ooo, thanks for the reminder! I very much enjoyed those as well and should dig them out again.

Did you read any of his other books? Would you recommend them?

I was a bit disappointed with the fourth book set in the The First Law universe. Possibly it was Best Served Cold but I'm not sure. It felt more like a rehash and it was missing whatever made the first books special. And it put me off trying his other books ever since.

I recently tried to introduce my son to them, but he just couldn't get into the series as it wasn't fast paced enough for him in the beginning.

Out of curiosity, and because of my praise for the series, my dad decided to give it a try...

I've never in my life seen him read anything for pleasure.

He's now >5000 pages in, just finished Fool's Fate, and is about to start The Rain Wild Chronicles (10th book in the series).

The link isn’t loading for me right now, so I’ll just add to the appreciation for Hobb. I’m currently reading book 13 (4th in the Rain Wild Chronicles). They’re all great!

I picked up The Assassin’s Apprentice while looking for something to fill the Rothfuss void. I was instantly hooked. The tone and the pace was just right for me. I really like that they are so character-driven, deeply exploring the characters’ emotions, history, flaws, etc. And she’s great at having the plot build and build until basically everything is going wrong, and then she delivers a super satisfying ending.

I usually take a short break between each tril, but I might just go straight into her last batch after I finish this book.

If there's a Robin Hobb trilogy you need a break before starting it's this one. It left me a sobbing mess on more than one occasion.

> While this is epic fantasy, it's _not_ at all grimdark. Bad things definitely happen, but it's more hopeful and humane than something like Malazan or Song of Ice and Fire.

I will always read anything recommend by a person who uses Malazan as a benchmark.

Purchasing this book right now.

Can't recommend her enough as well (Currently reading the last book of the third trilogy).

I didn't enjoy the first book too much, less epic scope than I was expecting and I don't like child protagonists very much.

But the writing was excellent and after a year hiatus and a streak of questionably written books (Malazan was one of them...), I picked her up again. Halfway through the second book I realized I was cheering to Kettricken charge to aid Fitz and I was hooked.

Since then each book has been better than the one before.

I concur with all of this!

The way she uses perception, perspective, and cognitive biases are, as you say, shatteringly powerful. Particularly with her stream-of-consciousness writing style, where you so naturally get sucked into the character's mental framework. The final trilogy in particular that brings it all together, but even within the individual trilogies she's constantly doing it.

I started reading her books back when I was still in school, and they had a fundamental impact on my life. It fundamentally altered the way I see things, and the career path I eventually took. I couldn't even articulate exactly how, until I stumbled upon the concept of systems thinking[1] a few years ago and realized that was what she had given me an awareness of. Which then led me to these[2][3], which pretty much describe how I had started seeing and approaching things after reading Robin Hobb's books.

Not sure if it would have been as impactful if I hadn't read them at such an impressionable age, but I'm forever grateful that I did. And for that, Robin Hobb will always reign supreme on my favorite author list.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory#Systems_thinkin...

[2] http://donellameadows.org/archives/dancing-with-systems/

[3] http://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to...

I entirely agree with your message and can only support the recommendation about those great books I've read countless times.

I'm a fan of Robin Hobb too, getting my start with the Farseer Trilogy in the early 00's.

Her work is quite unique, I think - as you say, it's epic fantasy, but with a slant I haven't seen before. I'll happily second a recommendation for fantasy readers.

I hope she's doing OK, and would be very happy to read more from her, if it comes to her.

" Bad things definitely happen, but it's more hopeful and humane than something like Malazan or Song of Ice and Fire."

Ok, I agree on the positive outlook in her books in general (and I have not read the other books you mentioned), but I remember, that some books ended in a very dark way, leaving also me in a very dark mood. I felt a lot with poor young Fitz and the books affected me a lot in my teenage years.

But I never finished them, the last I read was Fools Fate quite some time ago ...

"The final trilogy brings so many elements together, and the ending is shatteringly powerful."

So this sounds very interesting and after a short research, this means I have to continue with Dragon Keeper, Dragon Haven, City of Dragons, Blood of Dragons, Fool's Assassin, Fool's Quest and then finally Assassin's Fate.

Well, if I treat my own animal not too bad and my baby animals give me some rest - I might one day finish them, too.

I read the Assassin's Apprentice series through, but it didn't really satisfy, and I haven't read anything else by the author. I like the Malazan ones, and ASoIF, a lot more - partly the grimdark, but more so the overall complexity of the plot. While Hobb's work was pleasant it just didn't really engage me.

To each their own. I've found Malazan to be quite a slog. Enjoyable in parts, but too many characters, too broad in scope for me. I'm on the final book now, and am going to finish it, but I'll feel more relief than anything when I'm done! The Assassin's Apprentice series, being from the first person perspective is in many ways its polar opposite. Each style has its advantages, but I've found I prefer stories where I can really get to know a few characters, rather than necessarily needing a truly massive, sprawling world. (Kingkiller Chronicle is probably my favourite; hope I get to read the rest of it eventually.)

I notice a similar trend in my enjoyment of RPGs, preferring something with a fairly linear storyline to more open world games.

I’m not convinced anyone has ever read of of the Malazan series. Sure, it’s theoretically possible, but has anyone really read /every/ word? Jokes aside, I love epic fantasy, but that series was just a little too epic for me. Wheel of Time has a nice balance, you really get to meet the main characters, it just takes a while.

I read it all.

I would say it needed a series re-edit. First book or two are really differently paced from the end; those two should probably get bulked up a bit, and pulled fully into the final story lore.

Then the series needs a trim down, probably like 33% of pages. It's possible some of the story arcs need to be moved around as well for better readability.

I have just specified like a decade of hard labor, I know. :)

With that done, I think Malazan could be considered one of the all-time great fantasy series. As it stands, it meanders too much at times, and it falls into a sort of military + fantasy sub-genre which I think lessens the impact of the overall story -- it really is an epic RPG-style quest involving hundreds of characters with a (mostly) satisfying finale.

I was put off by the bad writing. Good writing is really wasted on me, I mostly care for it to be sufficient enough not to get in the way of enjoying the story. In my opinion Malazan does not reach even that level, which is too bad as I enjoyed the word building and the most of the characters. For the most part it reads like a DM recounting their D&D campaign (which I understand it is exactly what it is), but what might work (or just be overlooked) on an interactive RPG session doesn't necessarily work on a book.

The first book was very bad, the second book was actually much better and I enjoyed it (I assume the editing was much more extensive), but the third book was again barely readable and put me off the series.

I might start it again at sometime in the future, because it is definitely something I would otherwise enjoy. I think I read somewhere that the third book might actually have been written before the second, which gives me hope.

I think I've reread Malazan about ten times now, generally once a year, and each time I get new things out of it.

And what I love the most is that he planned ten books rather than needing to shoehorn in extra books after planning a trilogy.

I absolutely adore the huge cast of characters and the fact that you kinda need to pay attention to get the most out of it.

I struggle to understand how you even get through it in a year, let alone re-reading it every year.

I don't watch TV, and read for at least an hour per day.

I've been reading a lot since I was very, very young, and have gotten better at it. To be fair, I do have to stop myself from skimming, which is fine with most books but definitely not Malazan.

And also, I probably forget most of it after I finish it, until I read it again.

Depending how (fast) they read, it can be as little as 150h of reading, which is a month or 3 depending how much time they can devote to it.

The audiobooks are 390h total (16 days 5h according to Wikipedia). If your commute takes an hour each way, that’s less than a year even if you only ever listen to it while commuting.

The problem with the series is it seems Erikson wants to use it as a vehicle to talk about a wide range of societal issues, which means we end up with hundreds of pages of Bugg or Kruppe inner dialogue which can be pretty painful at time.

Maybe that's what separates it from other series though.

Ha, I admit for the last couple of books I've resorted to Google's "read aloud" option to listen my way through it while working out and such things. So I'm getting the gist, but definitely not taking in every word (let alone reading them)!

It's been a long time since I read WoT. I recall tearing through the first few books that were primarily focused on Rand & party. Aside from female character perspectives being frustratingly one-dimensional and stereotypical, I found it great. But then it started broadening, where each book seemed to spend less and less time on the main characters, and instead introduced all these other factions and settings and such that didn't immediately tie in in any obvious way. It did all (mostly) come together eventually (with Sanderson's help), but again I feel like the important parts could have been told without spending so many pages in other places. But hey, that's just my taste; clearly others love that!

Yeah, I thought Hobbs' books were well written, just not as much to my taste. I'm less interested in individual characters, or well formed prose (although both are good to have), than plot.

I don't really notice much difference in first and third person perspectives once into a book, although it's more noticeable when starting out. Second person is more jarring - I've read The Raven Tower and Harrow The Ninth recently, both being all or largely in second person.

Interesting point you make with regards to RPGs - open worlds are addictive to me (I played Skyrim for many, many years - and have played almost everything in the Elder Scrolls series).

Ha, yeah, there's definitely a parallel there. I'm much more of a fan of things like Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, and more recently the Dragon Age series (or at least the first couple. Undecided on 3 so far...) I tried to get into both Morrowind and Skyrim, but just didn't find they did it for me. Similar to the Fallout series (which I assume you'd enjoy as well if you haven't played them!)

Re books, Character development is probably #1 for me. I like a good plot as well though, but I prefer one that focuses on fewer characters in order to move forward with them more quickly. With something like Malazan or, say, Wheel of Time (which wasn't as well written maybe, but had quite a compelling plot) I find myself spending the whole time looking forward to the 10% of the book with the characters I actually care about; the rest can start to just feel like unnecessary filler almost.

I really liked the first book and parts of the 2nd and 3rd, but man the 3rd book really threw me off the series. Just a really unsatisfying way to land a trilogy - all of the stress and torment that Fitz had gone through for a couple of thousand pages across the 3 books is given just a few pages at the end, not even in-character, to pay off.

Wonderful prose but man the storytelling was a disappointment. Put me off her work completely.

Re-read the Assassin books recently afte revering them/Hobb as a kid. They're still good but I found plenty to critique this time around. Like, Fitz receives constant physical and emotional abuse from everyone around him but he remains ever loyal. It makes for exhausting reading at various points and his choices becomes increasingly hard to justify. Especially since those around him move on with their lives while he remains stuck: always agonising but ultimately never doing anything for himself. I also thought the antagonists were rather one dimensional haters, with not very interesting arcs.

Anyway! I don't mean to complain. These remain cherished books for me!

I just worked through them so it's a bit of a fresh wound. I wanted so badly for there to be a big satisfying payoff!

> Wonderful prose but man the storytelling was a disappointment.

If you're looking for quality prose with a confusing, hard-to-perceive story in the background, I can recommend Patricia A. McKillip. Most famously, I think, the Riddle-Master books, but most of her fantasy stuff is like this.

It's not so much that the storytelling is disappointing as that it's hard to understand what's supposed to be going on. But the writing style is something else.

As a followup, The 13 Clocks by James Thurber is a very short book, but it has some of the best writing I've ever seen. The story is not confusing, but it's nothing particularly special either.

100% agreed. Robin Hobb (Margaret Astrid Lindholm Ogden) was without a doubt my favourite author as a teenager.

Sadly, in the last 10 years, I've barely read anything. However, when The Fitz and the Fool Trilogy came out, you can bet I made time to read it!

> Sadly, in the last 10 years, I've barely read anything.

Try audiobooks. It's difficult for me at the moment to set aside time to curl up with a sheaf of paper bound together; but I continue to get my dose of long-form words when working out, washing dishes, mowing the lawn (and, before the pandemic, cycling to the office).

I look forward to my 45mins commute on the tube as it is the only time I have for reading. In fact I haven't ready pretty much anything at all on this year long lockdown and just restarted now as I went back to the office.

> more hopeful and humane than something like Malazan

Am I missing something here? It's been a while since I read the Malazan series but hope seems to be one of the primary themes of the series, even if things are utterly bleak at times.

I picked up the first book of the assassins trilogy on a whim, and ended up discovering, like you, one of my all time favourite fantasy authors.

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