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Comment by daimyoyo | Hacker News Reader

I've said before and I'll say again: Electric cars will not gain widespread acceptance until you can travel the equivalent of a tank of gas on one charge. Tesla motors is close, but you need at least 300 and closer to 400 miles per charge.

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It would be more accurate to say that you won't accept an electric car until it can travel between 300 and 400 miles on a charge. That is a fair statement.

However its unclear yet that "widespread acceptance" requires that. The Volt and the Leaf are out there, so its really going from theoretical to empirical. After they they have been in full production for a year, if they (and the other electric vehicles) are not gaining market share commensurate with the vehicle replacement rate, then you can say "See they just don't have widespread acceptance."

400 miles? You kidding? I have never driven anything that can go 400 miles per tank- I typically refill at 200-250, and some of my bikes I'd refill at 80.

Drive more efficient cars? With bigger tanks? The small sedans I usually drive pretty much always have ranges of above 800km (500 miles), and my range record on a single tank was with a turbo-diesel 405[0], with careful driving and a 70L tank (huge for a mid-range sedan, I recognize this, most mid-ranges are around 50L these days) was above 1400km (870 miles).

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_405

I generally do drive somewhat efficient cars. My most recent car, an old Outback, is the worst I've ever driven at 28mpg typ.

It's just been my experience that more efficient cars have smaller tanks.

When I'm on the highway, I tank my car up and it'll be roughly 200 miles at halfway and 300 at 1/4. Granted, I've never driven my car to vapors on the highway but it seems logical that a tank of gas will get me around 400 miles. It's a 14 gallon tank so that translates to around 30mpg highway. I don't think it's unrealistic to ask for an equivalent efficiency in an electric car.

For the main usage of the car that EVs are supposed to replace - commuting - the comfortable range can be far less than a tank of gas. Maybe a quarter.

For long-haul trips, it is of course a much bigger issue - in part because putting charge stations in the sticks (vs charging at home for regular commute) is so much tougher.

What makes you think that's a realistic expectation?

30mpg highway is really good and does not reflect the average experience of a consumer.

That said, I think you're (sadly) right, but not for the reason you're stating. Because electric cars can't be recharged in five minutes, consumers will suddenly think they have to go even further on a charge. They will completely ignore the fact that they commute 15 miles each way, every day, and the fact that they already have that minivan they use for long trips anyway.

That said, your argument doesn't really apply to this car. "The EPA official all-electric range is 35 miles (56 km), and the total range is 379 miles (610 km)." (Wikipedia) That qualifies as, "closer to 400 miles per charge."

What? 30mpg is around 7.8l/100km! All three cars I've driven so far consumed around 5 l/100km (gas) or around 4.5l/100km (diesel). All of them could seat four people and had enough room in the trunk to fit a week of groceries for four people.

That doesn't mean that American consumers expect 30 mpg from a family sedan on American highways.

> 30mpg highway is really good

Depends on the car you drive. 30mpg is really good for a gaz-guzzler, but mid-range sedans can easily be driven into the 40s.

mid-range sedans can easily be driven into the 40s.

Really? Here are some numbers from Kiplinger's "best midsize sedan" list from 2009:

* Sonata 32mpg highway.

* Mazda 6 30mpg highway.

* Chevy Malibu 33mpg highway.

* Nissan Altima 31mpg highway.

http://www.kiplinger.com/columns/car/archive/2008/car1207.ht...

Cars.com mentions the best in each class for 2011, and it's the Nissan Versa and Sentra, each at 34mpg for the "Midsize Cars" class.

Looking at FuelEconomy.gov, listed by class ("family sedan"), the only midsize sedans I can find that break 40mpg are the Passat diesel (43mpg) and the Hyundai Elantra (40mpg), the next highest is 31mpg.

Daimyoyo was talking about actual mileage, not EPA mileage. Simply by holding 60mph or below, you can easily get 10-20% above the EPA highway rating; 15-30% if there's a lot of traffic around you going the same speed.

> Simply by holding 60mph or below

It varies from car to car really, depending on engine details, transmission gear ratios, transmission type and aerodynamics. With my previous car the best mileage was achieved around 110km/h (68mph). At this speed, it was in the high 40s.

It's funny you should say that, since I don't think I've ever known anyone to actually hit their EPA numbers. Then again, the EPA number calculations were recently revised.

That said, I don't consider driving <= 60mph to be 'easy'.

There's a good reason I said "simply" instead of "easily." I'm personally planning some mild aerodynamic modifications to decrease the 75mph cruising penalty.

But I was referring to the current EPA numbers; the pre-2007 EPA ratings are harder to exceed by such large percentages.

There's a good reason I said "simply"

Uh...

you can easily get 10-20% above the EPA highway rating

It appears I said both "simply" and "easily." Your witticism was correct; I'll take my next freeway trip at 75mph by way of apology.

My 2011 Sonata is rated at 35 highway but I can and do get 40+ easily on long drives. The instant mileage gauge is definitely useful in terms of trying to get the highest 'score' fuel efficiency wise.

I have no idea what the official rating is, but my 1998 Buick Lesabre gets about 31 highway on a consistent basis, and it's not even vaguely designed for efficiency.

Of course, city, which is where I live, is closer to 19 or 20.

I have a 2011 Honda Accord (inline-4 engine) that gets, on average, 29 miles per gallon, and holds 18 gallons of fuel. I've easily done over 400 miles on a single tank, and have even come close to 500(though at that point I was kind of sweating bullets thinking I'd get stranded).

Euro perspective: My car's a 12 year old rusting hulk but it does 550 miles to a tank of diesel. I think more modern cars will get 750 or more. I don't think many people regularly drive more than about 400 miles without an overnight break though.

I don't see the range as the issue, but the lack of instant refueling.

I don't get too worried about my car's total range since I can just stop and get gas every 10 minutes in town. But the problem with electric is that it takes 10 hours to recharge. Is there a solution to that besides hybrid gas/electric?

It's essentially impossible to charge a battery in the same time as filling a gas tank. The currents involved would be immense, and besides requiring heavy-duty conductors and power electronics, such high currents would incinerate any lithium-ion battery on the market today in spectacular fashion.

Battery swapping is probably the most practical solution, but developing a standard battery pack that can be used in a variety of models and easily swapped - not to mention the logistics and tracking to distribute them nation-wide - would probably take longer than developing higher-capacity batteries.

Perhaps a breakthrough in capacitor power density? Otherwise, yeah, swapping seems like the most realistic option.

Nanosafe batteries charge in 10 minutes http://www.nanobus.org/dotnetnuke/Technology/NanoSafe/tabid/...

I think you might be right when you're talking about a household's first car. We want to be able to take the car on long weekend drives or holidays. But many households have two or more cars, and considering that the typical daily usecase is more like a 40km round trip, current electric cars are more than capable of meeting this need. Households simply use the fuel-based car for longer trips, and the electric car is used for in-city usage.

In 20 years time we could hope that the battery problem will be sufficiently solved that we can start getting 500km trips out of a charge, and then even the first car of a household could be electric.

My wife and I each have a car. I'd be happy driving a short-range electric car for my commute as long as our other car can be used for long trips. I bet a lot of people are in the same situation.

Obviously that leaves a lot of gasoline cars on the road, but it's a start.

If you're worried about range, then there's a old-fashioned gas tank in there to extend the range.

I really hope battery switching stations catch on (see betterplace).

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