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Comment by sammorrowdrums | Hacker News Reader

I would be willing to listen to that line of argument, but having seen the Amazon manager training videos, the doitwithoutdues.com site, the countless other articles, evidence and anecdotes about Amazon's particularly aggressive forms of trying to prevent unionisation, the twitter ambassadors tweeting the official talking points etc.

I don't think we can rule out the possibility we don't actually know what the employees truly think because they're in the middle of an all out propaganda war.

And I certainly don't think Amazon would put so much effort into fighting this if their employee treatment, benefits and compensation and general employer track record made employees genuinely not even consider the Union option.

As an outsider, it just feels like watching media reporting a war. I don't trust it due to propaganda and clearly opposing biases at play between the interested parties.

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The union is free to pay Amazon employees $15 an hour to watch their propaganda videos.

This paternalism of low wage employees needs to stop. They can make up their own mind and actually have skin in the game as opposed to some tech worker making 10x as much telling them they're being brainwashed

Of course they can make up their own mind - but simply pointing out the existence of propaganda and other factors at play, and the fact that ideology plays a large role in our lives, does not imply 'brainwashing' as much as ideological forces. The tug-of-war between labour and capital has been raging for centuries, and at no time hitherto is it more visible that it has graduated to the ideological battlefield when Amazon starts putting up posters and training their employees on otherwise hilarious videos to push their point of view.

And I think anyone should point that out - whether it's a union organizer in Alabama, a tech worker making 10x the salary (who, by the way, may also have an interest in improving cultural support for unions if they are a tech worker in favour of software engineer unions) or a historian on capital-labour relations. As far as I know, however, no tech worker has contacted anyone in Alabama and told them they're brainwashed.

'Paternalism' would be someone pushing the ballot for them 'for their own interests'. That does not preclude discussion of priorities, rationality, and the rational frameworks (epistemological/ideological/moral/practical/etc.) we have available to discuss how wise those decisions are.

”simply pointing out the existence of propaganda”

Why do you assume only you can see that’s it’s propaganda and they can’t?

I don't assume that. Actually, I assume the opposite - they are more likely to see some propaganda for what it is than I am. But I do think everyone has blind spots, and I do think propaganda is effective, even if you know it's propaganda. Even with a small group of people believing propaganda, peer pressure and the desire for humans to conform with the actions of their in-group can wield significant influence.

In the same way, I have no doubt that many citizens of the USSR or China or Nazi Germany or even the US can see through the propaganda targeted at them. But I don't think anyone would argue with the idea that propaganda was and continues to be effective for a significant (and important) portion of the population.

I would also think that, say, a historian who is an expert on propaganda, or an economist who is an expert on labour relations, a political campaign manager, or a company marketing manager would be able to more accurately and quickly identify propaganda when they see it. Some people can see through certain propaganda. That's not controversial.

You start off saying "they are more likely to see some propaganda for what it is than I am", then go into 2.5 more paragraphs how that's not really true and they are susceptible.

I find Amazon worker susceptibility to propaganda to be a little silly. And I'm talking about "fake news" propaganda, not promotion of a true, but pro-Amazon viewpoint.

Most folks I worked with a lower-paying, manual labor jobs had zero illusions about their employer. They aren't getting the "bring your whole self to work" and "help us change the world" bullshit that the big companies feed their white collar workers. It was very clear that the employer looked out for themselves (e.g. profit) and workers were easily replaceable.

I think people who claim they were manipulated need to give the workers a little more credit.

This is an ahistorical argument that is wildly ignorant of the power dynamics between labor and capital, with a Nassim Taleb-ism shoe-horned in to a place where it doesn't fit.

How doesn't it fit?

You don't live in this neighborhood. You don't work at an amazon warehouse. You probably don't even know anyone who does. You can comment about power dynamics on a forum for software engineers.

They have the power to seek better employment. Youre the one that wants to strip them of the power for them to vote on matters concerning them directly.

Please don't personally attack people here - I fit most of your criteria posted and your post seems very exclusionary.

And isn’t this the core issue behind nearly every political disagreement? Who has power, and how can we take it. I’m not saying that’s always bad, but it is, at the end of the day, about control.

And here I was thinking political disagreement was about solving problems and reaching compromises to everyone's benefit. I guess I'm naive.

Edit: Updated for clarity

Amazon is entirely apathetic to the concerns of their warehouse and trucking staff. That's why they need to wear diapers, soil themselves, shit in bags in the back of their trucks, and piss in bottles. If Amazon was interested in compromising we wouldn't be seeing nationwide coverage of these issues wherever Amazon builds a warehouse.

I don't see the paternalism in the comment you are replying to. Nobody is saying that workers can't make up their own minds.

To me the comment is pointing out that we as outsiders very likely don't know what is going on because reporting is probably biased.

Why are you deeply concerned about paternalism from tech workers who aren't even in contact with the employees in question and are just posting on a message board, and not concerned about potentially-illegal paternalism from the bosses of the employees?

> And I certainly don't think Amazon would put so much effort into fighting this if their employee treatment, benefits and compensation and general employer track record made employees genuinely not even consider the Union option.

You can say the same thing about any political campaign!

Do you think people must not really want Joe Biden as president because he had to spend $6 billion to persuade them through campaigning?

it's a bit different, voting for a Democrat president is excluding the Republican one.

When you vote for an union, you absolutely do not vote for your employer to become an asshole, it's not "either the union make the employer improve employees work OR the employer does it on its own". The union and the employer could create an alliance to make life better for the employees. Look at what police unions and conservative towns have done, unionized policemen can literally get away with murder.

There is no exclusive choice as to who should plan bathrooms breaks for runners and drivers: either the employer, or the union, as long as people stop having to pee in a bottle, you could even have a coalition with a giant conspiracy to have employee go to the bathroom when they need to.

> Do you think people must not really want Joe Biden as president because he had to spend $6 billion to persuade them through campaigning?

Unironically, yes. But that doesn't mean they would have wanted Trump.

Voting goes the way I think it should = people rationally voted for their best interest despite all the propaganda

Voting doesn't go the way I think it should = people were clearly swayed by propaganda and didn't vote in their best interest

Either we treat people like adults and trust their voting or we don't. One doesn't get to pick and choose which voting is "right".

In the article it was made very clear that this wasn't about propaganda, what is being alleged is that they have evidence that Amazon threatened and coerced people into voting against the union.

Propaganda may or may not be dirty, but threats of firings, plant closure, etc if the Union passes is illegal. Very very different.

Did you read the comment I was replying to? It wasn’t talking about threats it was talking about Amazon’s anti-union campaign.

Lots of propaganda and dark pattern stuff I saw with my own two eyes used in the campaign, and now possibly even coercion (compulsion to act involuntarily under threat of force) = people may or may not have voted rationally in their best interest despite or because of all the propaganda. my opinion on the result irrelevant either way. in fact i dont even need to mention it, it's that irrelevant. the outcome of the election itself was compromised and there is no magic time travel button to find out what would have happened if we did it over. therefore we must take the results at face value and just really really hope as hard as we can that this is the same outcome as it would have been otherwise

Not lots of propaganda and dark pattern etc etc = people rationally voted for their best interest, again regardless of my opinion on the result

Either we treat elections like they matter and dont unduly manipulate the outcome or we don't. One doesn't get to pick and choose which elections are "questionably carried out"

One of my neighbor works fir Amazon warehouse here in NJ, he is quite happy, never heard him complain about it.

Yeap, I agreed with you. The media is untrustworthy and is a propaganda machine. Good thing is they are digging their own grave now.

Have you looked at social media? Most people live by appearances and fake a lot of emotions.

Not saying this is the case with your neighbor, but if they’re just a neighbor, not a close friend, they might simply not feel okay talking about it with you.

I despise my job, but I'm unskilled and considering my pay, benefits, and responsibilities it's the best compromise I've found. I'd tell you, and my coworkers, that I'm happy. But I'm lying and no one wants to hear me complain about the bad hand life has dealt me so I put my face on and pretend, like just about everyone else.

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