I like Apple forcing use of in-app-payments, I like Apple giving me subscription control to make canceling easy. I like Apple blocking app tracking and forcing design constraints.
That said, the 30% weakens their entire argument about this and is a racket. If they want to charge a yearly deployment fee or something fine, but 30% of a company's income via IAP? That's obnoxious and anti-competitive, particularly in cases like Spotify where they directly compete and undercut them in the same market.
Apple is skimming a tax off the top and they're forcing everyone to pay the toll. It weakens their entire argument. I wish they would stop, because I think a world with multiple stores and such would be a huge pain and customers would suffer because of it.
If you think it's a pain to have 15 streaming services or 10 different game distributors all with their own shitty incentives - it'd be that on the phone.
You and Apple are conflating "App Store" and "Content Filter".
We can have multiple App Stores and multiple types of content filters. It doesn't need to be like the current situation, with Apple in full control over everything.
It’s not content filtering that I care about, it’s the ability for Apple to enforce standards around usability and features that are better for their users.
Without control of the store they lose that leverage.
App devs will just ship outside of it and include all the tracking they want. It’ll also block Apple from being able to require things like Apple ID or Apple Pay support which provide direct benefits to users, but can run counter to what app devs want.
It wouldn’t be an “alternative choice” app devs with leverage would ship outside of the store to bypass policy and force users to install shitty versions.
You might have to do this because of network effects.
The choice I want won't exist in that world and I don't have the leverage to require it to exist.
Apple does and that's why I choose their products.
[0]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
Others like to go base jumping from some mountain in the Alps.
Shouldn't both be possible? Or do we want a Mickey Mouse in the Alps telling us to go back for our own safety?
And I don't want to punch Mickey Mouse every time I go climbing.
I’m genuinely curious, because to me that’s the equivalent of telling Ford that you want a Ferrari engine in your mustang.
Maybe if someone could help me understand this I would be more open to those kinds of ideas.
Yes it does. Because otherwise you will need to install tons of app stores to install all the apps you currently use.
For instance, I would have to install the Epic store to install Fortnite. Now that’s two apps (the store app plus Fortnite app) and then I’d be less confident about the level of quality and security that the added store provides.
It is this particular situation that seems very hard to overcome from a regulatory perspective. So one you allow multiple app stores, the specialness that people like me have for our trusted devices disappears.
How many Spotify users paid through their App though? I'd imagine it would only be a tiny fraction.
They also started to prevent apps that don't have IAP for subscriptions.
> ...that app developers be allowed to provide consumers with information about alternative payment options...
The only thing I really like about Spotify is spotify connect. I don't understand why none of the competitors have anything competing. It's the key selling point for Sonos
That’s when they’re actually in violation of monopoly and consumer protection laws. Consumer harm is part of it.
Like for example, consider their restrictions on third-party browser engines, JITs, etc. Are you happy about all those choices too?
I would have to think about it honestly, I don't know what I think.
It's a little funny because I think someone reading my comments absent context would think I don't care about general purpose computing. I do care about it though, a lot. I think the centralization of communication services behind a few megacorporations is a sad outcome and a lost promise of decentralized communication between users on the net.
The issue I have is the inbetween - in 'the world as it is' at least apple has leverage to stop the shittiest data mining, tracking, email harvesting, call-to-cancel retentions, just general user hostile 'features' on our behalf. If they don't have that leverage, we don't suddenly gain a better environment - we're in the same shitty centralized thin client world, but now it's worse. In the idealized world of decentralized applications or strong data protection legislation I'd be in favor of it, but in our world I think the tradeoffs are serious and its one of the main reasons I buy Apple hardware.
Forcing the ecosystem to use shared libs for common, expensive taks like browser engines, JITs, etc, has clear benefits in terms of storage and battery life.
This is most stark with their recent announcement of supporting paid podcasts. Particularly because of the anonymization around sign-in with Apple, the podcaster doesn’t actually get to know who their subscribers are. Want to have special rewards or a subscriber only discord channel or forum? Too bad! If any of your biggest fans first started donating through Apple Podcasts you’ve got a big hassle in the way of verifying who they are. Got a weird customer service problem that you’d like to address with a personal touch or maybe offer some store credit or a special reward to make up for it? Once again, too bad. There is no capability to do that.
Most likely it is in the interest of majority of consumers conditioned to this type of control. I realize that it is a benefit for older computer illiterate people. It completely sucks for people like myself.
>"10 different game distributors all with their own shitty incentives"
That's one classy way of describing business approach. Yes they're shitty in a way that they're there to help you part with your money and everything else is but a fluff around it. You just forgot to add Apple itself to that group.
It's a benefit for computer literate people too.
- IAP allows easy tracking of subscriptions and cancellation. You don't have to call and argue with a retentions rep for an hour to cancel a service.
- Apple restrictions on tracking limit abuse from ad driven business models.
- Apple can require features like Apple ID to be implemented alongside FB connect or whatever. Apple ID has privacy friendly features for users like obscuring your email via a relay. This would never be implemented by app devs because hiding your email is counter to their incentives. If they could deploy outside of the store to avoid these constraints they would.
Apple's interests are aligned with their users. The reason they can get away with charging 30% is because Apple's users don't care about all the shitty anti-user things Apple blocks app devs from doing.
The reason I care about the 30% is because it worries me that they will be forced to allow side-loading or multiple stores and lose their leverage over app devs. If they lose that leverage we as Apple users will lose these benefits, and for what?
Because you literally don't get people in autocratic regimes killed because the single choke point of software that might enable them to escape detection is removed. Because you remove Apple's rampant discrimination against some kinds of speech and the people that effects. Because Apple attacks businesses with any involvement in sex whatsoever.
[1] I'm assuming that "autocratic" here refers to China - though despite the lack of political freedom and the awful situation with regard to ethnic minorities, I don't think that's a very helpful or expressive label.
If anything, Apple’s control here enables better protection for users. You think authoritarian regimes don’t own phones? You think Android is safer in China?
Sure, maybe. I do not care as I personally do not feel any benefit. I am most likely in minority but that does not mean I have to tailor my opinions.
Not even really criticizing Apple / Google. I want my phone to be able to function as normal Windows / Linux PC except that its phone capability would be able to function even if the rest of the OS is crashed. Such product simply does not exist outside of half baked attempts and I am not willing to waste my time/money on those.
The end result is that my current smartphone is mostly just a phone with couple of off-line apps like GPS and apps to install firmware to various gizmos like a drone. I do not even have data plan.
That's probably technically 'most', but it's not the large sector that matters.
Also 15% is still quite high.
That 15% includes the 1-3% creditcard processing fee. They also take care of VAT and multi currency for your customers.
I don't understand this argument at all.
You're almost certainly taking more risk driving in a car than downloading an app, yet you're probably willing to embrace the full degrees of freedom of the roadway.
We shouldn't be afraid to use computers. Security is possible without an app store.
Apologizing for Apple's exploitive system is doing us all a disservice. It's making it harder to do business, launch a startup, use your own device, refurbish your device, and compute freely.
Technology wasn't always a locked-in time share. We're witnessing a hostile takeover. An invented scam, sold to us by the Jobs and Ballmers of the world.
The Apple and Google stores make us serfs in their kingdoms. We're renting, not owning.
Your choices are impinging upon my freedoms. The more people that accept this, the more companies are willing to take.
A Department of Justice breakup is looking like the only solution at this point.
Your liberty is not at stake here, nor any real detriment to your quality of life really. The more companies take, the more opportunity for disruption there will be.
A Department of Justice breakup is certainly the easiest and most immediately gratifying solution. It is hardly the only solution, and in my mind I am certain it is the wrong solution.
Would you say the same if the car market suddenly coalesced into a duopoly and the car companies become very restrictive? Would you defend only them being allowed to do basic repairs in the interest of safety? One going as far as saying you need to buy their tires or tires from companies that pay them tribute or the car won't start, their seat covers unless you manage disable some weird detection, etc The other allowing such stuff just making it a pain. Would you then say a company just needs to pop up and meet this demand? Despite all the stuff involved and the size of cars would be a lot lot easier. Because at least cars don't necessarily need an ecosystem, userbase and developer community outside of the company to get of the ground and get sales.
As soon as you apply these things the other industries they start sounding ridiculous and hilariously anticompetitive but with phones people for some reason have come to accept it.
My take:
Car company requires third party manufacturers to adhere to its quality standards and pass review before being installed. The car company installs all of the third party parts for you and distributes them globally, handling payment, they charge 30% (or 15%) to the third party for this.
If you refuse to adhere to their quality standards they refuse to install your third party accessory.
Drivers can only get approved service from the car company.
Seems fine? Probably an exclusive benefit for owners of that car. I could see people choosing that car because of this.
So no, there is no part of that thats fine.
When laws around cars were put together people actually cared about their liberty, and I have the right to open car repair tomorrow and BMW and Toyotas of the world wont interfere. And unlike iPhones,cars actually are dangerous.
Your car, your choice.
You want to install an aftermarket supercharger and fish fins? Your prerogative. Toyota and Apple have no right to tell you what to do.
You can even still hack the fins on your car despite the policy, but it might be difficult to do yourself and it'll void your warranty.
Secondly I vote to get laws passed that they make sure they can shove this policy. I've had enough of this corporate lawmaking and stockholm syndrome victims covering for them
Which now also charges more fucking over consumers because they can and limits more in their favour because ...hey it's a duopoly. There's no pressure to make it a monopoly.
Also as someone else noted apples own actions show that this isn't how they do business given the opportunity.
Yes it is.
iOS controls a sufficient part of US revenue that wider ecosystem effects on what is permitted speech come directly from the app store terms, or at least in some cases about trying to second guess the inconsistently applied, arbitrary and vague as hell App Store rules.
We've got direct testimony from all sorts of app makers that what speech they do and do not censor on the platform (especially around sex, impacting the fundamental liberties and safety of sex workers, queer communities, artists and educators) is directly because their business is such that they need to watch the terms of the app store.
We've seen examples in China of Apple blocking apps that literally lead to people failing to escape authoritarian governments and them disappearing, quite possibly to their death.
Liberty is the fundamental reason that a singular control of what software can be run on mobile device is a thing too dangerous to be allowed to exist. Competition law is probably the most expedient route to fix it, but a centralised app store should be a criminal act on it's own merits.
> We've seen examples in China of Apple blocking apps that literally lead to people failing to escape authoritarian governments and them disappearing, quite possibly to their death.
This seems very flimsy but I would be genuinely interested in reading up on this, if you could provide a source/reference. Either way, this is a great reason not to use and publish on the iOS platform. But the irony of suggesting government overreach as a cure for the ails of extreme government overreach in another country is not lost on me.
And an iPhone being your property does not change the properties of the iPhone you bought. You can tinker with it as much as your ability allows you to, but if you are not happy with the limitations of the device than you should not have bought that device.
Actually that's literally exactly what it means.
It's gone beyond your choice or my choice - Apple is gravitationally distorting the entire industry and bending it to its will.
You don't have to drive on the highway either, so I assume you're fine with having that freedom removed too.
Yes, you do. If you want to reach 50% of Americans, you're forced to build and distribute an app on the App Store.
Try building Netflix without an iOS app.
Try writing a new social media app and not building for iPhone.
Pick any modern vertical without an iPhone app. You just can't do it. Apple is the new AOL for a lot of folks.
You immediately surrender 30% to reach 50% of your customer base, and on top of that, you have to dance to Apple's arbitrary rules and app approval release trains.
1. This is not how technology should work.
2. Apple's fees are extortion.
3. This is using monopolistic advantage to strong arm an entire industry.
Several people (including me) access social media sites through the browser rather than having a native app, in part because of the abuses done by social networks in device profiling in the past.
> Apple is the new AOL for a lot of folks.
So the same sort of companies who made a marketing decision to invest in AOL keywords are now willing to write an app and give money to apple so that users can find their service through a search in the app store?
> You immediately surrender 30% to reach 50% of your customer base
I assume you do not realize that it is well documented all of the ways you can pay less (e.g. subscriptions, small business program) or nothing (external payments and subscriptions - you are only limited by your ability to advertise those as alternatives to offering in-app purchases, and can raise your in-app price if you prefer to cover the difference).
There really aren't, because the HTML5 DRM implementation isn't reliable enough.
I like local control, I think urbit is cool and hope they succeed. I'm a little disturbed by the need for mighty and how we've ended up in a such a messy state of things with modern computing.
It's not about reducing risk or scam apps really - it's about Apple being able to incentivize user-benefiting behavior that ad-driven business models corrupt. Maybe we wouldn't need this in a world that had more CCPA laws with teeth, I'd be happy to live in that world, but we don't.
At least with Apple I have the option to buy hardware from a company with aligned incentives that gives a shit.
Apple isn't doing this out of their own good heart! They've built one of the largest monopolies in the world.
Is it okay for one megamonopoly to tax everyone else simply because they reached market penetration first?
Let's fix our laws. This is utterly unfair.
But the control and leverage is good.
The control and leverage are fundamentally evil, and they get people discriminated against and killed.
It has been this way since November, and it seems like either nobody noticed, or they seem to still enjoy quoting the 30% number. If you make more than $1mil a year you probably can afford to deal with that. You're also probably putting significantly more bandwidth off Apple's servers than an app that's had 100 downloads.
Unity does a similar thing, but it's free for up to a certain income, pay after that.
I personally would like to see that reduced to 10%, but at least Apple responded to the constant criticism that 30% was ludicrous.
From Apple:
• Existing developers who made up to $1 million in 2020 for all of their apps, as well as developers new to the App Store, can qualify for the program and the reduced (15%) commission.
• If a participating developer surpasses the $1 million threshold, the standard commission rate will apply for the remainder of the year.
• If a developer’s business falls below the $1 million threshold in a future calendar year, they can requalify for the 15 percent commission the year after.
Source: https://www.apple.com/ca/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-ap...
And for the entirety of the following year.
Apple has done a lot to revise the App Store charging policy over the last few years, and I think they deserve credit for that. Also their hosting of free apps for only a nominal developer registration fee is a huge boon to users and a lot of iOS developers.
So I don’t think those criticisms are entirely accurate or fair. I am ok with regulators looking into this though. Apples revisions to their charging structure probably wouldn’t have happened without the threat of regulatory review. It’s important they be held accountable. However Apple invested many, many billions of dollars to develop the technologies in iOS over many decades and took huge commercial risks. iOS and these devices are their product and they have the right to decide how they work and what features they have. Those who don’t like that do have alternatives. The fact is an awful lot of people do like the way Apple does things.
That's still pretty extreme imo when you control the only store and you directly compete with them/undercut them.
> "Also their hosting of free apps for only a nominal developer registration fee is a huge boon to users and a lot of iOS developers."
They charge a fee for it, I wouldn't consider it nominal - the ecosystem of apps also obviously benefits apple.
---
I'm a huge Apple fan which is why I find this racket irritating, it worries me that it'll blow up in their face and we'll end up worse off.
I'd probably charge a (low) flat annual fee for app store distribution and that's it. Apple should be focused on making money with great products, not taxing devs they force through their channel.
Keep the rules, lose the tax.
Regulators don’t (yet I suppose) care about this because of opportunity cost. If I’m making $3/user/mo off your $10 subscription and I decide to enter the market and compete with you at then every user I steal and every user if not for me would have gone with you costs me $3/mo plus cost of providing them service. So if I’m able to still undercut you then either I’m ridiculously more efficient than you or you have fat margins.
Neither of these are true so something else is going on here. Either I’m bleeding money and this is some strategic play in which case it might be unfair for different reasons, or the market is segmented and we actually have two different customer bases with insignificant cross pollination.
If Apple enters with Apple Music and charges $10/month - they're undercutting Spotify while charging the same.
If Spotify charges $10 and pays Apple $3 then Spotify makes $7 and Apple makes $3.
If Apple enters the market and charges $10 then consider a user that would have otherwise went to Spotify. Spotify makes $0 and Apple makes $10 from the subscription but loses $3 from what they would have been paid from Spotify so Apple makes $7.
Apple has lots of advantages stemming from their control of the platform but "not having to pay the 30% fee" isn't one of them.
Spotify gets $7 or $0 from a user
How is this not an advantage?
Anyway as I already pointed out it’s effectively 15%, not 30%. Also the vast majority, over 99% (literally, I looked it up) of Spotify app users earn Apple nothing because they use it add supported and all the add revenue goes to Spotify.
They bought the phone from Apple, so Apple made their money.
[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/08/07/apple-a...
I assume you think that would change, else why have other app stores. That's what I don't want. I want as close to 100% of the software for iOS as possible to have to follow the rules. That's part of why I chose iOS.
The same would still be true of all the apps in the App Store. There would just be other stores. You wouldn't have to use them. Other people could.
The issue here is that many people want the hardware or the OS without the App Store. If you give it to them, "people who only use the Apple App Store" will be a smaller number of people and Apple will have less leverage.
That's the point of prohibiting anti-competitive practices. Apple does a lot of things with that leverage that are bad. Like prohibiting apps that compete with theirs (e.g. browser engines), and imposing political censorship in authoritarian countries, and extracting 30% from captive developers.
You presumably want Apple to have the leverage because then they can use it against e.g. Facebook. If everybody on iOS thinks like you then you win -- everybody only uses the App Store even though other stores are available and Apple still has all the same leverage.
But if most of the people disagree with you, right now you're holding them hostage. Forcing them to use only the App Store even though they don't want to, so that the world's largest corporation can have more leverage.
It might even be a good test. If Facebook decides they can't be in Apple's store even though the app is free and there is no government pressure for Apple to block it, you might take pause to ask why and decide that you don't want that app.
Let's say I did like Facebook, or at least tolerated it because all my family was on it, and chose to use it only on iOS specifically because it was relatively secure and limited their snooping somewhat. Your scenario is a strictly worse situation for me. I was using it and was OK with the situation, now I have to either risk more snooping or drop it. That's not better.
Scams are rampant in the App Store. Give an unlocked iPhone to a 5 year old and they'll spend $1000 before you know it. This is not something worth defending.
https://9to5mac.com/2021/02/12/developer-reveals-fake-app-st...
Even with things going through apple, you don't have a safe and consistent payments scheme.
With more app stores, you can still get every app that's available on the Apple app store, just as you can now. You may not have access to every app, but you don't today either
I get that people want to use Apple only software, in which case I'd understand why they don't want other software on the Apple Store, but how the hell is your experience worse if there is another store available on the phone? Just never use it?
It's like as if Microsoft locked down Windows and the only option you have available is to install things through the Windows Store and someone goes "yeah that's why I use windows man, I don't want anyone to be able to install Steam". Has anyone ever argued this? how did it become a thing
"I personally love it how Apple is taking my freedom, I love it so much that I want to force Apple rules on everyone else."
The fact you like current Apple rules and you got scared by some FUD should not make you entitled to ask other to stop fighting for more freedom(my family have Android phones and they did not installed any other store, side loaded apps or got hacked). Apple could give the iPhone locked and give you a code on a paper you can use to unlock, you can FUD your parents to never use the code, you can burn the code, you can also not side load applications. You could also demand dear Apple to implement some safe sandboxing/jail where you can be safe to run anything, I heard they have enough money so maybe they could pay better those security engineers that keep finding bugs in their shit.
Apple leverages their power against app devs and for their customers.
- IAP, Apple ID, No Tracking, Notification Control, etc.
In a world where Apple doesn't have leverage via the store they can't enforce these things. App devs would ship outside of the store and include whatever crap they wanted. This is a worse experience and there is no 'choice' available for the users to pick a better one.
Apple is effectively acting as a legislator here, improving the quality of apps via their leverage in the interest of their users. It's a standard I'm willing to pay extra for and enforces good standards around privacy. The government law makers are largely owned by regulatory capture and lack of technical ability - why would we destroy the ability for one company that actually has incentives aligned with their users to enforce standards?
If Apple loses that leverage we lose that high quality option - you can't have it both ways because the leverage is what allows the incentive control.
People that don't care about it should use Android.
The net result: Apple losing their monopoly means a huge influx of user-hostile behavior in apps.
Now, you're not wrong either—Apple does, in some cases, abuse their monopoly, and probably takes more of a cut than is fair from IAPs. (Although, quite frankly, I'd be shocked if the money from cheaper IAPs went to reducing prices and not increasing profits.) So yes, Apple's behavior here is harmful in some ways, but it does good in others. Like pretty much everything in this world, it ain't black and white.
Yes, thank you for spelling it out thst you want apple to continie violating other people's freedom and perpetuating anticonpetitive practicea
Essentially as long as nothing threatens Apple's ability to tell other companies, including other tech giants, to play ball or pound sand, I'm fine with it.
And people will go willingly into that dark night.
It’s the experience.
But in practice, there are apps we need to use—people who we mostly communicate with over Facebook, movies we want to want that are only on Netflix, etc. In the status quo, we can use those apps, and they're beholden to Apple's guidelines, hopefully reducing the privacy, etc abuses. I can use Facebook and still have some amount of privacy.
In the world where alternate stores exist, I have to choose between using Facebook or having some amount of privacy. Sure, I could not use Facebook, but I'm a real human living in the real world, and that means I miss out on social opportunities that I would rather not miss out on. I—and the vast majority of iOS users, who aren't particularly interested in 3rd party stores—lose a less-terrible Facebook app.
(Not that I'm too happy with Apple here either. Some of Apple's policies are bizarre and abusive, and there are apps I'd like to run that aren't allowed. But I'm not entirely sure it's worth the tradeoff.)
What you don't get regardless is an apple that "throws its weight around" to force competitors and the like to do what apple wants. That's abuse and bad for everyone. That you happen to like it doesn't make it legal
One day an app you like, or your life may even depend on, suddenly disappears because of some arbitrary, pointless rule is brought by that company, whose decisions are, I repeat, outside of democratic control.
That's literally what millions of customers do, whether they do so explicitly or not.
Last time I made that mistake the site's subscription management interface was rather... uh, minimum viable product. Switching to paying the Apple premium was well worth it.
It really isn’t that hard to understand: many Apple users value a certain set of design and simplicity criteria over other factors.
This alone makes me never touch Apple - and I have considered it (because I still use my 6yr old Windows Phone). My only phone consideration is a Pixel with GrapheneOS
It’s that we don’t want iOS to be like any other computer system - the simplicity and lack of choice is a feature, not a bug.
Apple could provide the option of unlocking the bootloader and providing some driver code for their peripherals so we could make our own system, but they don't and that fact suggests there's a more sinister objective to this game. They exist to make as much money through their app store as possible and will not give up any control.
The open PC market is doing really well these days. Like, there’s a huge silicon shortage.
“Apple has a monopoly on not shitty hardware”
I have to chuckle. It’s almost like we want Apple to become a utility that must by government fiat build this great hardware but we now are going to force their software to operate the way a committee wants.
I am for regulation when it benefits consumers broadly (though unintended consequences abound). But this feels like pandering to a niche: potential dealers and tech tinkerers that never wanted the PC to become a consumer product.
There is nothing sinister of about running a business with focus and vertical integration. Apple tried an OEM model once, it didn’t work well for them (in part because Microsoft and Intel had that model locked up).
I had a chuckle at that too, I've seen a lot of monopoly arguments devolve into, [x] is too good, [y] can not compete with a similar but lower quality offering, this is anti competitive.
By "quickly gaining a monopoly", do you mean they've somehow made it impossible for another multi-billion dollar company to do a decent job on designing and building a phone?
Microsoft really cracks me up, they went as far as opening up retail locations all over the country, they just needed to invest for another 10 years and come up with something that can compete with iOS, and they decided to call it quits after a few years. Presumably because the expenses during the decade that is required to build trust with the public would cause an unacceptable hit to their financials and hence the bosses’ pockets, even though it would have benefited Microsoft after 10 to 15 years.
And now they get to compete with Apple’s own processors for laptops and desktops, for which they are behind another 10 years. Because they choose not to invest in their own employees and R&D, because they already have that sweet Office licensing revenue so why bother.
Why is it that people argue for changing Apple instead of just using other competing devices?
In moments of fear, hardship and crisis a decent percentage of people everywhere (30? maybe more) ask for the reassuring hand of a dictator.
Now, implementing this technically could be somewhat challenging and there is no obvious line to me where the boundary for customisation/freedom should be. But I think a first step is recognising the false choice that you present so that we can move the discussion to the details of where that technical/societal line should be rather than talk in freedom/non-freedom absolutes.
Take the alternative app store. If they are allowed you will have some with exclusive apps. Those apps are then outside the apple rules and you have to have to hit the switch if you want them. So you loose out on the app or on all your apps being apple rule / account / payment compatible.
If there is no alternative store you will get all apps the apple way.
Apple is providing a real benefit here. Of course they are also leveraging their semi-monoplostic position to "extort" money and to distort competition.
But how is this different than Android? There could be apps exclusive to Android, presumably there are. If you want them you have to choose Android. All the people who only trust Apple can't have them, the same as all the people who would refuse to turn the switch.
And even if some of the people who currently have iOS devices would turn the switch, the people who wouldn't are still a huge market. Unless they're not. But in that case what you're really saying is that people don't actually want the Apple-controlled market and most people are only buying iOS devices in spite of rather than because of it.
Frankly, citation needed. If phone manufacturers can find ways to unlock bootloaders, I refuse to believe that there is no way to allow for sideloading of some form on iOS. It particularly disturbs me how this comes from the “Think different” camp which praises the quality of its software to high heaven. Nowhere have I argued that the line should be drawn at “free mixing of application stores”, yet I continue to get the same boilerplate arguments that any move from the current status quo will lead to a complete collapse of the allegedly all so superior iOS ecosystem. I do not buy it.
I don't think GP meant that it wasn't technically possible, they were saying it isn't possible for this switch to exist without some popular apps eventually getting almost everyone to flip the switch and negate the whole point of having a switch.
I don't think I agree with them because Android already has this switch and I can't think of many apps that lots of users would want to sideload, except for Fortnite.
Rather, I think that the argument is sloppy, lazy, and frankly relies on a severe lack of imagination and rigidity of mind from those that present or accept it. Thus we should stop parroting it as it makes for a very boring discussion.
Instead, maybe there is an interesting discussion to be had as to whether Google maintains control using Google Play Services? Technical aspects of how a consent mechanisms could work relative to bootloader unlocking? The viability of Apple’s offerings in terms of better privacy and payment UI if something like Fortnite “broke free” and started a competing store? All this sounds endlessly more fun to read and contribute to compared to: “I am content with the status quo, it serves me well, and I see no reason to discuss this further with you freedom zealots!”.
It's not like the App Store even prevents malware anyway. All Apple does during review is run the app and watch network traffic via a proxy and ask "does this look like it's violating our rules?" There's no instrumentation and there's nothing to prevent apps from changing behavior after the review. These aren't loopholes abused just by flashlight apps but even large companies like Facebook routinely abuse them. Don't forget that you can also get code onto people's phones by providing a completely closed and never reviewed dylib to devs and they'll just include it in their apps if it solves a problem for them. This is another extremely common tactic to distribute iOS malware (and another one Facebook likes.) Also lets not forget all of the outright scams on the AppStore and the fact that it more or less prevents the sharing of community maintained software (chat apps in particular) which tend to align more closely with users interests.
There is absolutely no reason not to allow users to be able to enter an alternate App repository and push service in the settings App other than that it protects Apple's monopoly.
1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/03/30/trezor-...
Even Amazon (who pushed heavily on their alternative Appstore a few years back) never removed their own apps from Play.
The idea of loving apples walled garden comes from a position of extreme privledge. You have to have lots of money to afford apples ecosystem. The hard reality is just like automobiles an iphone has become a societal requirement to participate in the common market.
You can't install 3rd party apps by default in android, you have to turn it on.
It sounds like the parent poster's relations have freely chosen to delegate their technology management to him or her, and in turn the poster is comfortable delegating that to Apple and their walled garden. If Apple is selling safety, security, and control, and people are buying it, what's the issue?
Potentially the issue is a lack of competition in the market when there are too few options; but it sounds like you're saying that no one should prefer a walled garden option at all.
We have plenty of precedent from microsoft being forced to allow software before. Apple and friends have lobbied (bribed) heavily for antitrust and antimonopoly to no longer have teeth. If it were 30 years ago apple would have been put through the meat grinder.
If we need the legal right then we'll legislate it.
Mobile phones are personal computers, actually of the most successful type. We should have learned some lessons, but no, people come with the same arguments as in the past decades (it's easier, it makes me look cool, I'm lazy). Then, one day, you find that your favourite app has been removed because of God knows what other arbitrary rule has been introduced in the name of the greater good, as undemocratically decided by a private company.
And, please, don't come with the "if you don't like it, choose Android": at 50% market share that's not an argument any longer.
She wouldn't know how to do those things, so this point seems kinda moot.
I'm simply noting that those "dangerous features" are, practically, only accessible to the people that are tech saavy enough to understand the risks.
So the "it's to protect the innocent" argument doesn't seem to hold well.
My sentence thinks over the top comment and the one you are replying to, both highlight irrelevant factual positions.
Both are interesting details for techies, but in the real world they have no practical value.
You liking Apple's ecosystem doesn't mean they aren't anticompetitive.
And really your point is kind of... weird. It's not like you don't have to go out of your way to get third-party apps on your Android phone. And you would lose nothing, if Apple did the same, maybe even more buried in hidden settings and behind disclaimers and warnings. Reads like the typical retrospective justification of any limitation Apple features.
"A single USB-C port? Yeah, I love it! Keeps you focused and mindful about peripheral devices!"
Every god damn time. Beyond bizarre.
It just provides a way to run applications of my choice on my hardware to people who want that.
That was the case when App Store was born, it really did provide the security and curation of Apps. But now that is no longer the case, scam Apps and low quality apps / games are everywhere. They are not as bad as Android but still bad. Not to mention Apple doesn't care about your IP, if someone make an app that is 99% the same with look and graphics. There is no way to challenge that because Apple said they dont take side ( What ? ).
Especially when they hold the majority of market shares. Today, the iPhone has 66% market share in the United States, 75% of U.S. App Store revenues, and over 80% of time spent on the mobile internet. And these numbers are pre iPhone 12, judging from the trend it looks like the current number will only be higher. They cant hide behind privacy and curation forever.
The first option looks far easier.
Feel free to continue using the Apple app store. You can do that, and after these lawsuits other people will have the voluntary choice to choose a different app store as well.
This is only half-true. Google allows users to install third-party stores. Because only handful of geeks do that.
But if your competing app store gains enough adoption and you make deal with device vendors to preinstall it, the negotiations will mysteriously break down and the other party will grow quiet... Reportedly, because their (NDA-covered) contract with Google does not allow them to preinstall software from Google competitors.
See also: Google fined in Russia for prohibiting vendors from installing Yandex applications on devices [1]
But court decision apparently wasn't enough, so Yandex had to lobby the government to force smartphone vendors to preinstall their apps or get booted out of Russian market [2]
1: https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/17/google-reaches-7-8-million...
2: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-technology-softwar...
There is a huge difference between treatment of different parties, even if the their contracts are same (and I doubt, that Samsung has the same contract with Google as everyone else). For example, do you know, that some Android devices aren't allowed to use a different launcher, other than supplied by Google? Or that Google Play Terms of Service prohibit publishing there alternative app stores? There are many such draconian restrictions in all Google's contracts. They are ignored until it is convenient for Google to enforce them.
Back to your question, — neither Samsung nor Amazon are Google's competitors. Their app stores are garbage. Samsung was trying to jump off Android for years. And Amazon devices don't come with Google's software, so Google has no leverage against them (except YouTube).
It's just completely unrealistic that a classic consumer will install any other app store on their device, they just use what is there and that's for the majority of Android phones the Play Store.
If Google would truly be open for competition, they would let the consumer choose the app store, the search engine and everything else when they first turn on the device.
In contrast, Apple retain full control of the phone. You buy it, but you don't control it.
Came across it while following the development and distribution of iSH (https://ish.app/), which has now made it into the main app store.
Prior to publishing to AltStore, iSH was only available on Test Flight, which has a limitation on the number of users who can join (10,000). So they'd periodically have to kick inactive users off the TestFlight so others could try it.
Check https://dontkillmyapp.com/ for more information.
Chrome is open source because, as a fork of WebKit, it has to be. For other things, they use open source to drive adoption.
The whole "they only do X for profit" is such a lazy argument, because it can be used to argue any side of the argument if you try hard enough.
idk, Apple does have open source? Swift is *incredibly* open, but probably a outlier for Apple. It's operating systems aren'tt, but kernal is (right?).
I don't really understand the love for Android (and sometimes Google) and hate for Apple. The first versions of Android were a clone of blackberry until Apple unveiled the iPhone.
The reasons are all over this discussion, just spend some time reading it. My takeaway might be that some people value autonomy and ownership, and feel like Android gives them more of that.
* Google shows countless scary warning dialogs to users who even think about installing a third party store. Any competitor trying to run an alternative store needs to somehow educate potential consumers on the process of enabling "unknown sources", and convincing them that doing so won't actually kill you (translates directly into higher business expenses, and is probably an impossible obstacle to overcome to reach the majority of consumers)
* Google regularly monitors apps installed outside of the Play store with their "Play Protect" thing, which is an opt-in virus scanner, except not really. When you install an APK, they ask you for permission to enable Play Protect. If you decline, they'll just keep asking you again and again until you accept either by accident, or do it so they stop annoying you. Through Play Protect, Google is able to arbitrarily block any app they consider to be "potentially harmful". Consider that they regularly ban apps by accident on the Play Store using their broken AI, and that those registered developers struggle to get those erroneous bans reversed. I'd imagine getting a ban from Play Protect reversed is nearly impossible.
* Google has a full time hit squad of penetration testers called "Project Zero" which goes around checking competitors for vulnerabilities so they can make big scary press releases about how unsafe the competition is (even though Google Play itself is riddled with malware).
And also, this isn't related to the anti-competitive stuff, but I feel compelled to point it out:
> Android is open source
Yes, Android is open source. The operating system on your Android phone is not open source. Pretty much the only people who benefit from Android being open source are:
* Device manufacturers, who don't have to develop an OS to sell phones, and can install whatever they want on it, like spyware, ads, keyloggers, etc that can't be uninstalled by the user
* Power users and mod developers who are fighting the good fight against that kind of thing (but are hopelessly outgunned)
Saying that something is "open source" usually comes with the understanding that it's a good thing for users and freedom, except in this case it's not.
Say what you will about Apple, but at least they're honest about what they are. Google is still stuck in that cognitive dissonance phase from when they first became 100% evil.
It is a single setting/message about allowing you to install apps from unknown sources that you can grant for that specific app. You can enable/disable anytime.
> Google regularly monitors apps installed outside of the Play store with their "Play Protect" thing, which is an opt-in virus scanner, except not really. When you install an APK, they ask you for permission to enable Play Protect. If you decline, they'll just keep asking you again and again until you accept either by accident, or do it so they stop annoying you. Through Play Protect, Google is able to arbitrarily block any app they consider to be "potentially harmful". Consider that they regularly ban apps by accident on the Play Store using their broken AI, and that those registered developers struggle to get those erroneous bans reversed. I'd imagine getting a ban from Play Protect reversed is nearly impossible.
I have multiple apps installed from F-Droid and I have never got a single message from Play Protect warning me of anything.
> Google has a full time hit squad of penetration testers called "Project Zero" which goes around checking competitors for vulnerabilities so they can make big scary press releases about how unsafe the competition is (even though Google Play itself is riddled with malware).
I've never seen Project Zero act unethical or unprofessional to gain a market advantage.
> Yes, Android is open source. The operating system on your Android phone is not open source.
Depending on the phone you get. Many people specifically pick manufacturers that are more friendly to open source.
What you’re refering to as Android, is in fact, Google Play Services/Android, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Google Play Services plus Android. Android is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another component of a fully functioning Google Play Services system.
Many mobile users run a modified version of the Google Play Services system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of Google Play Services which is widely used today is often called Android, and many of its users are not aware.
There really is a Android, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Google Play Services is the core: the program in the system that is required for full functionality of a mobile device. The core is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Android is normally used in combination with Google Play Services: the whole system is basically Google Play Services with Android added, or Google Play Services/Android. All the so-called Android ROMs are really distributions of Google Play Services/Android!
> The core is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself
though I think this is a bit exaggerated, no? AOSP gave me a perfectly fine, modern Android 10 experience
I've tested using microG in order to gain some functionality which is missing on pure AOSP builds (eg push notifications) and even with their FOSS minimal implementation of Google Play Services there's still subpar functionality like being unable to use many apps with integrated maps (Uber, Tinder, Google Maps).
Avoiding Google on your Android device results in an undeniably degraded user experience still. They additionally have abandoned many of the AOSP apps like the Calendar and Keyboard, to instead develop and maintain their own branded versions. F-Droid, LineageOS and microG in particular are picking up the slack, but we're still a good way from having the same level of functionality whilst avoiding Google proprietary software.
Wow. That is incredibly uncharitable, bordering on slander.
* Install dialog pops up every time you want to install an app
* No automatic background updates
These things can be changed with root, but you shouldn't have to root your device to gain this basic functionality.
If anything they took more from the community in terms of the Linux kernel etc then they have given back with useful technology when it comes to phones.
We already have a choice, between these ideas, some prefer one over the other.
I personally prefer the platform that is better integrated, designed, and backed by the company already making the hardware and software. If I have an issue, I know who to go to.
If the other option were more obviously beneficial, why haven't alternative App Stores on Android succeeded yet? What's holding the maintainers of those alternative stores back from growth?
Maybe the answer in this case is that it really is just better (in a relativistic way) for the majority of people to interact with the same entity producing the rest of their phone's core software and perhaps even easier for developers to not have to contend with varying rules and policies across multiple App Store platforms.
Thanks think if users had to enable “unsafe” apps on the App Store than that would be fair. The whole “Benefit” from these walled gardens was that they would have some validation.
In reality their walls are revenue funnels.
It is not. Android without the proprietary Google Play Services is utterly broken for non-technical end-users.
You can buy an Android Phone, and install whatever app store you want.
I'm happy to use an iPhone, knowing my personal information is safe and it reduces my chances of being Harvested by Google.
Google is an ad company, and a hardware/smartphone company, and an enterprise collaboration company, and a cloud hosting company, and lots more.
Similarly Apple is a hardware company which is getting more and more of its revenue from digital sales, subscriptions and even advertising every year. They can and do track their users exactly like Google.
It is naive to think that any company at that scale has your best interests at heart. They will do whatever it takes to make more money, period.
Exactly. And Apple makes money of privacy. It's their thing.
Google's business model is based on abusing my privacy.
Apple's business model is based on securing my privacy.
That's why I use Apple stuff and won't touch Google with a 10 feet pole.
https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelin...
Some it seems thinks Apple keeps data private and anonymous. In fact they do the opposite and encourage using an icloud account over and over (after ever update). All of this data is easily acquired via a warrant at any law enforcement level.
A county cop (without a college degree) investigating his neighbor can get all this info simply submitting a scanned PDF of a warrant from a county judge.
One example: There was a person harassing people on facebook in a small local community. Sending obscene images and making threats. To solve the crime local law enforcement ended up compiling a list of just under 20 possible suspects.
Hoping to match an iCloud photo to a post on facebook a warrant was issued for all 20 users data. Apple sends an. encrypted file with all the data and then another email with the passwords
Long story short the offender was caught however almost 20 people’s data was looked through by local law enforcement. I stress local because this is not some federal agent solving a major crime but just a neighbor police officer who sends his own kids to the same schools as these other innocent people.
Disclaimer: I assisted law enforcement on this case and a couple of others.
Apple makes money by (among other things) appealing to a certain set of privacy conscious consumers. That's different than "making money off of privacy".
I think that Apple is often deceptive about the degree to which they themselves track users and store user data. I think its simultaneously true that Apple stores less information about [advertising] users that Google does, but is less straightforward about the information it does track, and keeps more than the average Apple user thinks.
It's possible to run open source android phones (including without google play services) which protect your privacy pretty well. As part of android allowing more consumer control, there's a larger culture of open source apps, so you can get further with fdroid. Open source apps are usually pretty unlikely to compromise your privacy and harvest data.
On iPhones, it's true that the phone itself doesn't track you as much, but there's other downsides. You're unable to use firefox+ublock origin, so far more websites on iPhone will track you. There are fewer open source apps, so it's quite plausible you get tracked by more apps individually. There's no ability to uninstall default services whatsoever, again unlike android.
I think for the default user who doesn't make an effort to search out privacy-preserving software, an iPhone will probably harvest less data.
However, for someone who knows how to run LineageOS, install ublock on firefox, and install apps from fdroid, I think you can get a phone that harvests less of your data with android.
I also think that there are enough distinct data-points on each side of this argument that it's difficult to claim either is better with certainty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_custom_Android_distrib...
Last, Google allows you to disable their activity history and other options that may be concerning from your Google Account. Apple has very few options to limit your amount of data sharing.
Of course that's at this point in time. Tomorrow Apple could turn around and be worse.
"Android sends 20x more data.."?
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/android-sends-20x-mo...
Take it with a huge grain of salt, but also note that Apple sends more personal data to themself than Google according to that article. Not in the amount of bytes, but in they amount of different data send, according to the article.
I think most people would agree that fewer personal details being shared is more important than the amount of data used to communicate. So in that regard Apple is worse.
All in all, I think this whole discussion is pointless. Both are collecting as much as they can get away with and both suck when it comes to privacy.
LOL. Instead of bowing down to one master, you chose to bow down to the other?
But if you choose to buy phones from ad companies, it's your decision.
They can encode it in contact in a second and choose not to.
Meanwhile; have you you seen Google stand up to the despicable behaviour of Facebook? No? I wonder why.
https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-says-itll-change-how-it-coll...
If you use your brain you can conclude that Apple does not care about privacy enough to hire competent developers, this feature design was clearly insecure and against privacy that my any person with a bit of brain and not emotional invested can see it clear, "privacy is only PR, when it comes to actual implementation is irrelevant" ... though I think you could convince me that there is a chance that we could explain this just with pure stupidity, somehow Apple has such a broken process that stupidity triumphs over sane architecture, then yeah I hope you love the fact you use a product from someone that loves privacy but is to stuipid to offer it to you.
https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-says-itll-change-how-it-coll...
Apple is still tracking app launches in macOS, even though it has said that it will stop logging IP addresses along with that usage data.
Apple has invested heavily in this vein.
They choose not to do this.
Apple have invested heavily in their /marketing/
If you believe they won't flip on you the nanosecond it suits them I've got a bridge over here that might interest you...
Besides even if you believe the current people controlling Apple, all of them, you can't possibly know who will control it next year let alone in 5 or 10 years. This "I want to believe" garbage is just ridiculous. Seriously. You expect anything you like and Apple won't care a damn if your expectations are trashed for their profit or something else.
If they won't put it in a contract it only because they reserve the right to to flip you off. Hard and rough. No other reason.
Like when Apple dropped end-to-end encryption on iCloud because FBI asked them politely.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
Thanks for confirming that there's no privacy in iCloud.
Apple owns your phone.
Problem solved. You get to keep using apple app stores, and other people can choose something else.
"It [privacy] is a value that is so deep in us. Personal information can be used and abused and even weaponized in ways that can be really, really destructive. Often in a way that's not at all apparent to the person who might be giving up that information." and "These devices are so intimately a part of our lives and contain so much of what we're thinking and where we've been and who we've been with that users deserve and need control of that information. Abuse ranges from creepy to dangerous".
He says more about privacy in that same interview, recommended listen.
And I'm baffled why they're baffled. Is the koolaid that strong and that permanent there?
Until such a beast is released, I'll stick with my (admittedly) crappy and de-googlified Android phone; I simply can't afford to buy a new iPhone 3-4 times a year because they keep breaking.
The other 90% use Androids. They could use "second-hand" iPhones - but those don't work quite as well and stay compatible with the latest apps whereas the latest cheap Androids do.
They sell plenty of things, including these apps
Apple has just as much reason to harvest your personal information and track you in their App Store as anyone else.
You’re calling them anti consumer. But that’s wrong. This is why I give them my business, and if they bowed to pressure so people can execute whatever software on my device, I’d exit the Apple ecosystem and buy a $300 phone instead of a $1000 phone. It’s actually that simple.
Edit: Sitting at -2 votes because people don’t approve of my consumer habits. Censor people you don’t agree with instead of having an actual response. Okay.
Apple certainly could be hemmed in on clear areas of conflict like Spotify.
Opening the platform is not traditional antitrust because consumers like it this way - it’s more about charity for the competition.
Fragmentation: If Apple competes well there won't be any because their app store will be the best on merit not at gunpoint.
Safety: Don't sideload or install unsigned apps. Keep your phone up to date. This doesn't change much except possibly give you the option to be unsafe.
Payment processing: We already see integration with Cash app, Google wallet, Apple pay, Stripe, PayPal, etc. This is not an issue.
Because if you ask me, my guess is that the average Apple consumer couldn't care less if the platform is opened up or not.
If it helps you sleep at night, keep thinking it’s a very small minority. It’s really not.
When your immediate response is to have an emotional outburst and tell people they’re stupid, it actually shows you lack intelligence.
> if they bowed to pressure so people can execute whatever software on my device
Who is proposing that? Nobody.
Right now I have confidence that anything that can run on my device is signed off and approved by Apple.
That gives me a sense of security and privacy. I don’t have to worry about something being approved or not approved. If there’s an app, I rely on Apple to have signed off on it.
That’s why I buy iPhone.
And all it really comes down to is that Apple has customers who repeatedly give them business each year simply because they like the app ecosystem not being a flea market where anything goes.
No, you are.
> Right now I have confidence that anything that can run on my device is signed off and approved by Apple.
> That gives me a sense of security and privacy. I don’t have to worry about something being approved or not approved.
(Except apparently you do, judging from your previous paragraph.)
> If there’s an app, I rely on Apple to have signed off on it.
That's why people are saying they should allow other app stores beside their own: So they can continue to curate and ban apps in their own one, and still not be (seen as) totally evil monopolists who use their entrenched position to crush potential competition in the app space.
Keep installing apps only from the Official Apple App Store — don't even install another one (they'd probably put up lots of scary warnings around that) — and you'll still be just as safe as now. Just like all the other inmates.
>just like all the other inmates.
You’re arguing in bad faith and launching into personal attacks. :)
No one is crushing competition in the app space. Don’t do bad things and I’m sure Apple will list your app on their App Store. Your exaggerations of monopolizing are merely that — exaggerations. We have 13 year olds selling apps or giving free apps on Apples App Store. They literally brought the idea to the masses and executed it flawlessly.
If you don’t like it, you’re welcome to go create your own phone and your own App Store. No one is stopping you, and no you’re not entitled to run whatever code on peoples phones... especially when those people don’t know what they might be downloading.
Since you’re venturing into personal attacks, I’m not going to engage any further.
Can you install applications from third party providers on other app bases HW? such as Gaming (XBox, Playstation, Nintendo) Cars (Tesla, Benz, Nissan)
Or in non SW/HW world can you force stores such as Walmart, HomeDepot, Macys, Nordstorm to sell goods from third party seller? And, even these stores charge fees for selling items made by other manufacturers.
If you don't like ecosystems made by Google and Apple don't buy their HW/SW.
When I'm buying a general purpose computing device (which is what smartphones have become), I expect a significant degree of flexibility in how I can use it, and don't need the vendor to arbitrarily start placing limits on that flexibility to "protect" me. Especially when those limits happen to coincide with the financial goals of the vendor.