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Comment by dccoolgai | Hacker News Reader

Just a tip that I have used, take it or leave it. The US govt. publishes their pay scale openly and the level of experience for jobs that go with them. I say to the recruiter: "If I took this position with govt., I would get paid xty-thousand... And that's just bare minimum... That comes with insane levels of job security... Does this position offer that kind of security? No? Hmmm... also govt comes with crazy high pension benefits that you don't have... What do you think we should do to bring that number closer to market reality?"

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Unfortunately the government matrix for programmers underpays entry level positions. For example, here’s an open entry level programming job open right now: http://usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/599153100

But at least it’s out in the open, saves people time if they are expecting more then that.

That is not at all underpaid for an entry level position unless you are comparing solely to FAANG. There are plenty of experienced engineers in OH or NC making that level of salary.

No, not in Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, NC. FMV for an entry level software engineer is at least 15% higher than that.

Payscale.com says 47k-95k

Monster.com doesn’t have a filter for years of experience, but says 70k at the low end

Dice.com says 62k-84k

yeah, 72k (+15k bonus) is what I make as entry level data engineer in Arkansas. It's underpaid for the industry but twice the median pay in my city.

What's the cost of a house in them parts?

This is a great strategy. You're using a concrete example and asking them to help you solve the problem.

It also takes away from them the riposte of "you're full of shit" or "that number is crazy" because it comes from the biggest Human Resources dept on the planet. It's maybe my favorite interview tactic I've come up with, both for negotiation value and from keeping people from wasting my time. "You're not even going to pay more than the government, even though you have shit benefits by comparison? Adios. Don't call yourself competitive."

In strategic terms it also "inverts the information asymmetry" they like to exploit; "We're a company and you're just one person with an idea of how much you should make" becomes "You're just a little company, this is what the largest employer anywhere thinks I'm worth".

Where do you find these pay scales?

https://www.usajobs.gov/ is a good resource as well , for example, for a software engineering position: https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/590441900

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...

Wow. Is there any resource on what the tiers correspond to in terms of title and experience?

You can cross-ref that with the USA Jobs site, which usually (I think?) lists the O-level of the position. What I usually do is: Find job on USAJOBS most like the one you're applying for and take note of the GS- or O- level and then go to the other site and see how much a GS-12 or whatever makes where you live: This is now your absolute floor if the company you're applying to offers the same level of benefits as the govt. (Hint: they don't)

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