Comment by munificent | Hacker News Reader

Comment by munificent | Hacker News Reader

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> for no understandable reason.

Americans classically derive much of their sense of value from:

1. Work

2. Race (for many white people, especially historically)

...and that's about it. Unlike other cultures our "rugged individualism" means that we don't tend to derive as much sense of worth from family, traditions, organizations we belong to, etc. This is especially true for men who are raised to believe that who they are is what they do.

The economic shift to a service- and knowledge-based economy with many manufacturing and ag jobs being automated or outsourced away has devastated 1. in many communities. The march towards better civil rights and equality is chipping away at 2.

This has left a huge number of Americans feeling that they are worth less than they used to be. People like that are ripe for being exploited. People will buy anything if you tell them you're selling dignity. Trump's "Make America Great Again" slogan was really "Make You Feel Like You're Great Again".

> Unlike other cultures our "rugged individualism" means that we don't tend to derive as much sense of worth from family, traditions, organizations we belong to, etc

I agree with the overall premise, but there is a single notable exception to to this, which is the military, which is the intersection of family, traditions, and government organizations. But even there, as we have seen recently, there is a white nationalism problem afoot.

>Americans classically derive much of their sense of value from:

> 1. Work

> 2. Race (for many white people, especially historically)

> ...

> People will buy anything if you tell them you're selling dignity.

All true, and it's important that politicians who hope to actually heal these folks focus their efforts on restoring the dignity that comes from work and community, and dispel the dangerous sort of "dignity" peddled by ethnic/racial nationalists.

> a single notable exception to to this, which is the military

This is a bit of cognitive dissonance I find fascinating among the far right. I have had conversations with many people who clearly simultaneously believe:

1. The government can't do anything right.

2. We have the world's best military.

And yet for most it hasn't seemed to click that the military is a government program.

But, again, I think this gets to my larger point that because the military is such a source of prestige for many Americans (especially poorer ones with few other upward mobility options), they are able to maintain that bit of cognitive dissonance.

(And, to be clear, I absolutely do not think conservatives have a monopoly on cognitive dissonance. I see many different ones all along the political spectrum.)

Hard to process this kind of cynicism, accurate though it is. Not your demeanor, by the way, friend, just the reality of it all. Ironic that I speak of willful ignorance and yet am happy to not think too hard about the very things you've called out here.

I really don't mean this to sound cynical, though I can see how it comes across. I think it's more about understanding human psychology and trying to use that understanding to empathize with and understand why people behave in seemingly irrational ways.

As a tribal primate species are absolutely hard-wired to seek ways to provide value to our tribe. Being worthless to the tribe means being left in the forest, which was a death sentence to our evolutionary ancestors. So our need for social prestige is as fundamental as food and shelter. Perhaps even more so since for most of our ancestors, food and shelter came from the tribe.

The ways we seek out that esteem are determined by our surrounding culture. If esteem is the game we're trying to win, culture determines the board and the moves we're allowed to make. We can push against culture somewhat and it evolves over time, but we're largely stuck with the one we're enmeshed in.

So you get a set of people who need to feel valued. You raise them in a culture that says the main way to do that is by having a well-paying job. Then you take away the jobs. This is a recipe for unrest and strife.

Oh definitely -- I'm not detecting cynicism in you and maybe it's the wrong choice of word. I'm more feeling a sense of disappointment in what you're saying being true. It's tragic, in truth.

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