Hacker News Reader

Comment by ghughes | Hacker News Reader

> That’s when Yu started having second thoughts. Even after spending $200,000 on rent, an architect, a lawyer, equipment and fees, he’d still need to pay at least $120,000 in construction on his space. And he knew he’d have to hold his grand opening in the middle of a pandemic when capacity is still limited.

The article tries hard to pin the failure of this project on SF’s tedious permitting process, but it sounds like the real reason was poor timing and an unrealistic budget.

View on HN

Should it cost 200k in legal fees and 18 months of politics to open an ice cream shop? Is that the kind of world you want to live in?

I could open an ice cream shop in 90 days here... seems a bit more sane.

I think the 200k was mostly rent.

You have to pay rent while you navigate the permitting and inspection process.

Edit: What I'm saying is that if you spend a year paying rent on an unopened shop while waiting on a permit, then that is properly understood as a cost of the permit.

Should it take a year to open an ice cream shop? I get it when you want to build a GW scale nuclear reactor or a vaccine manufacturing plant that it takes a year of permits or longer. But an ice cream shop.

No, obviously not. That's what I'm saying. If you spend a year paying rent on an unopened shop while waiting on a permit, then that is properly understood as a cost of the permit. What did you think I was saying? (I'll just edit the comment to make that clear.)

A year doesn't sound unreasonable. Especially for a person's first time. Even large franchises in midwestern strip malls can take 9+ months to get going.

Restaurants are harder than people are aware.

It was a year just for the permitting process. So its an extra year on top of the 9+ months of time that it takes to set up a restaurant since (if the article is to be believed) you can't do it in parallel.

$200k on legal fees? Outrageous! Let's see what the article says:

>$200,000 on rent, an architect, a lawyer, equipment and fees

Strange.

Yes you're right, it is actually ~ $140,400 on rent. Which you have to pay while you go through the permitting process. So while it's not the city that is collecting the money, it is the city policies that are creating the costs.

To me even 90 days is insane, at least in Indonesia, you could open an ice cream shop tomorrow in your own house if you would like

I think people in the US would generally hold that that's a bit too fast, because at a bare minimum you still want a set of basic inspections. For example:

- Health inspector to make sure that the place is acceptable for serving food (no bug infestations, freezers are operating at a food-safe temperature, proper equipment for hand-washing and cleaning everything)

- Fire inspector to make sure that the exits are accessible and working properly, smoke detectors and other emergency equipment is up to snuff, and that the operators know the allowable maximum capacity of the square footage

- Building inspector to make sure that nobody's knocked down a load-bearing wall or otherwise done any unsafe renovations, as well as to make sure that the shop is following local codes (for example, keeping people from putting up 24/7 flashing neon signs in residential areas)

Fine, a week then.

In Sweden you have to notify authorities two weeks before opening. Not sure why they would need more time than that.

two weeks, max... it is duable, but for a government that has contempt against small businesses, it will never make it happen.

Also, health inspections are recurring, and something that is done routinely

The latter two can be required if the landlord as a condition of renting a retail zoned space.

Regarding health inspection, the big one is sanitation. And that’s not something you just have a guy come in and check before the business opens. You have to inspect actual food, which means you do it after the restraunt opens.

Listeria can be a problem in ice cream shops without proper equipment and cleaning.

The article says he started the lease in June 2019, 22 months ago. That means that $160,000 of his spend is rent. I would lay a lot of the blame for this at the feet of the landlord, who had someone who would renovate their building and increase its value but instead drained all their capital and ruined the venture.

Is 22 months too long? Totally. Unbelievably. Though I'm not sure I feel any of the steps listed in the article are inappropriate. The last 12 of those 22 months have been in a pandemic and I'm sure things have slowed. I guess what I'm trying to say is this seems like a poor example to use in judging the system. The landlord has so clearly done most of the damage in this instance.

But... the reason the budget was unrealistic was because of SF's ridiculous permitting process. So I don't understand your point.

The article doesn’t even come close to establishing that.

The ability for competitors to object to you opening up your shop establishes that.

I don't think so. It makes sense that people in an area should have some say in the businesses that open nearby. You probably wouldn't want a nightclub opening up down the road from you. Or if you ran a call center, you might not want an Harley Davidson Custom Exhaust shop to open next door.

Even thought the article buried in the article, the objections to opening were not upheld. But giving people a chance to voice their opinions on new businesses does seem reasonable (and is probably very common).

If it didn't take 2 years to sort out the filings nearby shops did to stop his shop from opening he wouldn't need to pay 2 years of rent with no possibility of earning any money.

Yes it does...

We know that after 22 months, Yu still didn't have permission to open a business. We know that his rent was $7k/month. And common sense tells us he needed to rent the place before starting the permitting process.

Therefore SF's system placed a $200k+ burden on Yu. And it's obvious that a 22-month permitting process is unnecessary in almost any circumstance.

So the article establishes that SF placed an unnecessary burden, in the realm of $200k, on Yu.

What additional facts are you looking for?

Permitting processes are notorious bureaucratic and lengthy in every major city. The article didnt specifically cite any evidence calling out SF for being particularly egregious.

Part of me suspects some of the negative comments on here are from people seeing what they want cause SF is a popular target to hate on

> architect

Why do you need an architect to open an ice cream shop?

Surely there are tons of units ready to go?

Commercial real estate is often leased as an empty shell - while it is true that you could probably find a storefront already outfitted as ice cream store, or at least for foodservice, the tenant is probably still going to need to bring all kinds of fixtures, branding, etc. I'm not sure how the line is drawn between whether you need an architect for that or some other kind of designer, but point is that leasing a space which is habitable but not ready for commercial use is common in the US. Commercial tenants often get really broad license to customize their entire space within the confines of the walls.

Most previously-used commercial spaces have to be demoed inside.

Sometimes, a fixed amount of architect budget is given as a concession by the landlord for prime properties.

Also, if you don't go about architecture exactly how they want it, some cities will often make you use one of their preferred architect buddies and start back at zero in terms of permitting and inspections. (Mountain View, CA I'm looking at you with emoji eyes.)

It's not lying, it's commercial real estate.

https://official-rossmann-merch.creator-spring.com/listing/r...

I'm pretty sure that a random commercial space won't be "ready to go" with ample deep freeze in the back and a counter with freezers in the front. Sounds like custom cabnitry, lots of electrical work, probably some ventilation... putting all that stuff together in a pleasing arrangement is definitely the work of an architect. They don't just do freestanding buildings.

You still have to submit detailed plans to the city for your commercial space. An architect is best able to help here as they are familiar with the building code, permitting process, etc.

They can also help account for things the prospective ice cream shop owner isn't aware of. For example, regulations around hand-washing stations for food-based businesses.

I happen have an ice cream shop and we used an architect. Their experience designing other retail locations was very helpful.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com