Comment by cosmie | Hacker News Reader

Comment by cosmie | Hacker News Reader

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> This is thinly veiled and potentially dangerous bullying.

Which itself could be the basis of a follow up research paper. The first one was about surreptitiously slipping vulnerabilities into the kernel code.

There's nothing surreptitious about their current behavior. They're now known bad actors attempting to get patches approved. First nonchalantly, and after getting called out and rejected they framed it as an attempt at bullying by the maintainers.

If patches end up getting approved, everything about the situation is ripe for another paper. The initial rejection, attempting to frame it as bullying by the maintainers (which ironically, is thinly veiled bullying itself), impact of public pressure (which currently seems to be in the maintainers' favor, but the public is fickle and could turn on a dime).

Hell, even if the attempt isn't successful you could probably turn it into another paper anyway. Wouldn't be as splashy, but would still be an interesting meta-analysis of techniques bad actors can use to exploit the human nature of the open source process.

Yep, while the downside is that it wastes maintainers’ time and they are rightfully annoyed, I find the overall topic fascinating not repulsive. This is a real world red team pen test on one of the highest profile software projects. There is a lot to learn here all around! Hope the UMN people didn't burn goodwill by being too annoying, though. Sounds like they may not be the best red team after all...

A good red team pentest would have been to just stop after the first round of patches, not to try again and then cry foul when they get rightfully rejected. Unless, of course, social denunciation is part of the attack- and yes, it's admittedly a pretty good sidechannel- but that's a rather grisly social engineering attack, wouldn't you agree?

A real world red team?

Wouldn't the correct term for that be: malicious threat actor?

Red team penetration testing doesn't involve the element of surprise, and is pre-arranged.

Intentionally wasting peoples time, and then going further to claim you weren't, is a malicious act as it intends to do harm.

I agree though, it's fascinating but only in the true crime sense.

Totally agree. It is a threat, not pen testing. Pen testing would stop when it was obvious they would or had succeeded and notify the project so they could remedy the process and prevent it in the future. Reverting to name calling and outright manipulative behavior is immature and counterproductive in any case except where the action is malicious.

I agree. If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, then it is a duck. Anyone secretly introducing exploitable bugs in a project is a malicious threat actor. It doesn't matter if it is a "respectable" university or a teenager, it matters what they _do_.

They did not secretly introduce exploitable bugs:

Once any maintainer of the community responds to the email,indicating “looks good”,we immediately point out the introduced bug and request them to not go ahead to apply the patch. At the same time, we point out the correct fixing of the bug and provide our proper patch. In all the three cases, maintainers explicitly acknowledged and confirmed to not move forward with the incorrect patches. This way, we ensure that the incorrect patches will not be adopted or committed into the Git tree of Linux.

https://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~kjlu/papers/clarifications-hc....

> If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, then it is a duck.

A lot of horrible things have happened on the Internet by following that philosophy. I think it's imperative to learn the rigorous facts and different interpretations of them, or we will continue to great harm and be easily manipulated.

> Which itself could be the basis of a follow up research paper.

Seems more like low grade journalism to me.

But the first paper is a Software Engineering paper (social-exploit-vector vulnerability research), while the hypothetical second paper would be a Sociology paper about the culture of FOSS. Kind of out-of-discipline for the people who were writing the first paper.

There's certainly a sociology aspect to the whole thing, but the hypothetical second paper is just as much social-exploit-vector vulnerability research as the first one. The only change being the state of the actor involved.

The existing paper researched the feasibility of unknown actors to introduce vulnerable code. The hypothetical second paper has the same basis, but is from the vantage point of a known bad actor.

Reading through the mailing list (as best I can), the maintainer's response to the latest buggy patches seemed pretty civil[1] in general, and even more so considering the prior behavior. And the submitter's response to that (quoted here[2]) went to the extreme end of defensiveness. Instead of addressing or acknowledging anything in the maintainer's message, the submitter:

- Rejected the concerns of the maintainer as "wild accusations bordering on slander"

- Stating their naivety of the kernel code, establishing themselves as a newbie

- Called out the unfriendliness of the maintainers to newbies and non-expects

- Accused the maintainer of having preconceived biases

An empathetic reading of their response is that they really are a newbie trying to be helpful and got defensive after feeling attacked. But a cynical reading of their response is that they're attempting to exploiting high-visibility social issues to pressure or coerce the maintainers into accepting patches from a known bad actor.

The cynical interpretation is as much social-exploit-vector vulnerability research as what they did before. Considering how they deflected on the maintainer's concerns stemming from their prior behavior and immediately pulled a whole bunch of hot-button social issues into the conversation at the same time, the cynical interpretation seems at least plausible.

[1] https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/YH5%2Fi7OvsjSmqADv@kroah.c...

[2] https://lore.kernel.org/linux-nfs/YH%2FfM%2FTsbmcZzwnX@kroah...

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