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Comment by puttycat | Hacker News Reader

I've been using WhatsApp for years, reluctantly since it is the de-facto SMS standard in my country.

I will never, ever, understand the "online" status feature. It is ridiculously invasive and cannot ever be turned off or even hidden from specific contacts. This is a SMS client, not a chat client, and revealing a user's online status is highly problematic both socially and security-wise. I can't help but wonder how many lives this feature has ruined.

(I am talking specifically about the "online" indication, not the "last seen" information, which is also invasive but can be turned off).

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> This is a SMS client, not a chat client

That is a subjective take that's mainly in your head.

WhatsApp is a client for chatting, so it is a chat client. It does not use the SMS network, so it is not an SMS client.

Some countries such as US and France had free SMS services, that enabled it to be used as chat. Other places SMS being costly it was used as a "write ideally one message" functionality, similar to email (which only costs in other ways, in human time, but not in actual bills). You can see this in the design of the Messages app in iPhone for example.

I only used WhatsApp for a year or so to talk to a specific person, but it definitely felt like a chat client to me. My general impression is that it is a lesser version of AIM but using phone numbers as logins. To be fair, I think of all instant messaging apps as lesser versions of AIM, and I still can't believe AOL dropped the ball so hard on that.

I don't remember the online indication, is that only when you're actively using the app? or just if the app is open on your phone? I'm trying to think of a situation where either could ruin someones life but I'm struggling. Maybe if you're trying to avoid someone important to you, but need to talk to someone else on whats app? Could you give an example of what you were thinking?

When you are online anyone can check it. There is no option to hide the online status. Using an easy script anyone can then spy and understand pretty much everything of a person, or a group. This is easy cyber stalking and dangerous. Especially because normal people do not understand this and think that hiding last seen is useful to avoid being stalked…

Do you mean any one of your contacts? or anyone who has your phone number? And I'm still confused about the definition of "online" and how that can give anyone an understanding of you.

Anyone with your number, and it reports when you have the application open. Assuming WhatsApp is the first and last app you open in the day (good morning and good night messages) you know how long a person sleeps, and this is only a very easy analysis you can do. I am sure you can find something more interesting recording when people open an app.

OK, yeah I agree that should be configurable, or at least limited to contacts. Maybe it should only count as online if you're actively using the app instead of having it open in the background. I'm sure many people just have it open 24/7. If I still used it, I would want an option to only receive messages when I'm online.

>Maybe it should only count as online if you're actively using the app instead of having it open in the background

Not sure about desktop clients and not sure about what you mean by "open in the background" in this specific case, but I can answer this for mobile WhatsApp apps specifically. For those, it only tracks when you actually have the app open in your main view.

More specifically, if you just have the app in the background while using some other app, it doesn't count as online. If someone sends you a WhatsApp message and you receive a notification but don't open the app itself, it doesn't count. Only when you actually open the app is when it shows you as being online.

Personally, I agree with you that the simplest solution that would already resolve a ton of those issues is to simply only display your "online" status to those who you have added to your contact list (instead of to literally the entire world).

" understand pretty much everything of a person, or a group."

How does this work - does it leak status or location, messages, contact lists etc? We have a number of folks who are absolutely freaking out over how folks are being killed because of this - can someone walk us through how it leaks all this info?

A quick note that I make my entire calendar public in terms of available times so that folks can schedule their time with me.

> We have a number of folks who are absolutely freaking out over how folks are being killed because of this

I can totally see that happening:

Person X suspects their partner is cheating on them with Person Y. So they start logging every time their partner is online and every time Person Y is online. Person X becomes obsessed with this theory of cheating and discovers a correlation between their online times, concluding that they're being cheated on, so they explode in rage and go kill their partner.

Um, my wife and I use the same code for all our devices - if your partner is developing this level of paranoia aren't there easier approaches to this question? Or maybe setup a separate whatsapp account to use for cheating if you are big into that so folks can't track you while you cheat?

You can absolutely hide it - it's in the settings, as mentioned in the article. The tradeoff is you won't be able to see anyone else's status.

I do agree I don't particularly like that it's on by default.

The parent commenter is talking about the "currently online" indicator, which can't be disabled. From a (strangely worded) WhatsApp doc:

> Please note you can't hide your online.

https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/chats/about-last-seen-and-o...

That’s one of the reasons I jailbreaked my phone, to be able to control which app can access which data and when.

your answer doesn’t make any sense in this context. this is a standard whatsapp feature that can not be turned off. you can disable networking and open whatsapp and that flag will not be sent, but also your conversations won’t get updated. jailbreaking doesn’t change any of this.

If you have root you could decrypt the traffic on the fly, and block any data that is not necessary for basic functionality. Maybe even run squid locally, and configure it there. I doubt that's what they meant, and it would take a bit of reverse engineering, but would be kind of fun.

https://watusi.fouadraheb.com/ Check the privacy features.

> I'm trying to think of a situation where either could ruin someones life but I'm struggling.

Ruining someone's life might be hyperbole but people certainly notice when the people they're messaging are online. Especially when they send messages and are ignored.

Totally agreed that it's invasive. Same for the "typing" indicator, which also can't be disabled. If I'm writing something longer than a sentence or two, I usually just compose it somewhere else and then copy/paste it into WhatsApp, just to avoid feeling observed.

The fact that those two things can't be disabled actually makes me want to use WhatsApp less. I doubt I'm alone in that. Makes me wonder if Facebook's "engagement" stats account for those types of disincentives.

I also type elsewhere and copy paste to Whatsapp anytime I am writing something longer than a couple lines. I have also disabled the last seen feature. The currently online status seem way worse than last seen and can't be disabled.

> I will never, ever, understand the "online" status feature.

Fun fact: WhatsApp was initially just that i.e. It showed status of its users online and people started using it to share messages leading up to the development of full-fledged chat app.

We may be from the same country, Where peer pressure to have a WhatsApp account is so high that friends and relatives get offended if you don't have one.

So I have isolated WhatsApp to a android VM, it sends me an encrypted email of the incoming messages, lets know the sender the same and that they need to message me on Signal if expect faster reply[1].

[1] https://abishekmuthian.com/send-and-receive-whatsapp-message...

> since it is the de-facto SMS standard in my country.

Same in my country, I don't think Americans (or the American tech culture) realise how ubiquitous WhatsApp is in Europe and around the world.

In the UK, I’ve basically only used WhatsApp for sms-type communication for the past 4 years. Actual SMS is for one-time passcodes and automated messages from my bank and doctor.

Previous to that, I was in Australia where practically nobody used WhatsApp, favouring iMessage or Facebook messenger.

Messaging app adoption is highly localised.

There are a lot of things that are "ubiquitous" but I still wouldn't voluntarily use. Between this thread and the YouTube one today, and countless other ones in the recent past, there seem to be a growing number of "Xyz app is bad, but I won't stop using it" threads lately. I mean, talk about being part of the problem and not part of the solution. Whatever happened to "Be the change you want to see in the world?"

I'm in a European country and no one uses whatsapp here. I have it but only to talk to foreing friends.

> I can't help but wonder how many lives this feature has ruined

I agree with your comment completely, but isn't this a bit a bit of an exaggeration?

> I agree with your comment completely, but isn't this a bit a bit of an exaggeration?

No. Many global south countries like Brazil use WhatsApp instead of sms, and not being able to control what information you push out is therefore dangerous. As someone else wrote in this sub, you don’t need to first ‘friend’ or link with someone on WhatsApp before they can see all your info (like how often and how long someone is online). Stalking and stalkers are more prevalent than you think. Nevermind that the situation is also different depending on your gender (women are stalked and victims of violence more than men).

Also I think a few people here seem really concerned with whether its an SMS or an IM service, but I think that doesn’t matter when you ask instead what’s affordable and accessible to the average person in the global south. I think you’ll find that sms and calls are usually luxuries reserved for the tiny minority in power).

> women are stalked and victims of violence more than men

This is going to be a bit off-topic now, but I'd say by violence above only physical violence is meant. If verbal and psychological abuse is included, the balance isn't quite so obvious.

> I can't help but wonder how many lives this feature has ruined.

and relationships

This seems like a stretch to me. I agree this feature is unnecessary and invasive. But why would it destroy relationships?

It doesn't take much imagination to come up with a hypothetical scenario. Person is writing to their partner but receiving no reply, however they can see that their partner has been online for the past 30 minutes. Person is convinced that their partner is talking to that one guy from the gym.

I have definitely been called out for being online but not replying, so I can easily imagine how that can end up becoming a big drama in some relationships.

Maybe you have a crazy manager. They see you were online when you were meant to be working. They use this to justify their thoughts you’re lazy. Who knows?

Just go ahead and see on playstore how many people are using whatsapp status tracker app. Also read reviews and you will know.

It does nothing but serve to increase paranoia that someone is actively being ignored.

Not sure if its country wise or only in newer versions, but you can turn off last seen and read receipt as well. go to account -> privacy if its available or try to upgrade.

I can't help but wondering how many lives WhatsApp has helped.

And it is definitely NOT an SMS client. The entire reason it has become so popular is that it does not use SMS. Before WhatsApp - the govt in these countries - supposedly looking out for the common good - allowed telecom carriers (usually giant oligarchs) to charge OBSENE per msg rates.

I do remember when SMS where actually free in Germany (where customarily telecoms charge you an arm & a leg). This led to people carrying mobile phones (era before smart phones), but only ever used SMS. You've seen them 'simsen' in bars, coffee shops, everywhere. Looked quite funny then (even though we appreciated that they stopped talking loudly on their phones all the time everywhere). I still can't quite get used to the view of people with a screen glued to their face.

With Android phones you could possibly use an app like NoRoot Firewall to cut off net access for the app when you want to appear offline. Unfortunately that's a pretty "advanced" use of apps for the average consumer and definitely not a replacement for building this in natively.

Actually pointless as online status is shown when you open the app.

And you have to do that fir checking messages.

Depends on your reasons for showing offline. If offline is a proxy for “I am not here to check and respond to messages”, such as when you’re sleeping, quite useful. If not, and you’d prefer to be constantly offline for privacy reasons, less useful.

You don't "show offline" in WhatsApp, either "online" appears below the contact name or nothing appears. Nothing doesn't mean offline, it means the person doesn't have WhatsApp running in the foreground, they could or could not be online (which most define as "using or not using the phone right now").

It was a euphemism, but good clarification! Colloquially you can interpret the lack of online-ness as offline.

Or turn on airplane mode

Whatsapp has nothing to do with SMS? Why would you think so?

In some circles it has completely replaced SMS. While it has chating features, the normal message sms use case also takes place within whatsapp in these circles/countries.

I totally agree. Except that I very much call it a chat client. It is way beyond SMS.

It's sms that is way behind the needs of chat :)

you can turn on airplane mode, quickly check whatsapp messages, get out and turn off airplane mode. It is a dirty hack, but it also helps you to spend minimal time on whatsapp.

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