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> a laptop that starts at $1470 with a 802.11n wireless network interface, in the year 2021? seriously?

There are no wifi cards supporting free firmware except this one. With such card, you can have fully free OS without any binary blobs: https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-wifi-specs/5900/2.

Why it matters? See here:

Why FSF Endorsing PureOS Matters

161 points | 4 months ago | 129 comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25504641

By the way, you can easily replace the card if you want and install the binary blobs.

Upd: Power adapter is included in laptops: https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-14-questions-and-wonder/1059....

> There are no wifi cards supporting free firmware except this one.

I think this one doesn't have free firmware either, it's just that the firmware stays on the card and thus is not loaded from the OS.

IMO the driver is free, but the firmware isn't.

Yes, the laptop card has free firmware: https://wiki.debian.org/ath9k.

The one in their phone Librem 5 has proprietary firmware which stays on the card. And it supports more bands.

> Yes, the laptop card has free firmware: https://wiki.debian.org/ath9k.

No, it hasn't. You're confusing driver and firmware, again. What it has, and what you are showing me, is a free driver.

The former is executed on the main processor of your computer, the second on the various chips of your card / device which can run various forms of code. The second can be loaded either from the main CPU (computer), or from some flash or some (P)ROM located on the board or directly inside the chips.

Yes, it has. Sorry for the wrong link. Here is the right one: https://wiki.debian.org/ath9k_htc/open_firmware.

As far as I know, the PCIe-based Atheros 802.11n cards don't have any firmware at all - just hardware state machines controlled by the open source driver.

Where is the line between "hardware state machines" and firmware? Flashability? Existence of programmable storage on the device? Other?

Genuinely curious, I know next to nothing about this space.

I think you're making adequate observations but missing the point.

The Librem line of products are targeting a market niche of Free Software/Hardware, transparency and security.

If you're comparing to the offerings available in Best buy, you're probably not in the target audience.

Not sure why they sell the power adapter separately though. Judging by the Librem 14 page, the adapter is not sold separately, it's something you select while setting up the order..? Cf. https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-14/

I've been using FreeBSD since 1998 on the server side - and currently admin a large amount of Debian based infrastructure stuff - so I'm well aware of the philosophical GPL/LGPL/BSD related issues related to free software.

And I admire what they're trying to do with this laptop. Being a start-up small hardware manufacturer in the same ecosystem with 500 pound behemoths like Microsoft selling Surface Books, and Dells and such, is a really hard position to be in.

But I also believe that on the x86-64 platform, hardware will either stand on its own merits or it won't. There's no glossing over that some components on this thing are really not a good value for the money.

That depends on how you value openness.

I'd happily pay a premium and accept older hardware if it gives me more openness.

That's not to say that an old, slow wifi card doesn't bother me - but I don't think I will get a new gats wifi card with open firmware unless I pay the people who will work on it.

Aren't you just making yourself a target by ordering from them? I know they have the add-on tamper seals, but if I was any agency, I'd make sure to monitor packages coming out of their warehouse.

> And then they have the gall to sell the power adapter separately from the laptop, for an extra $59? What brand new laptop on earth doesn't come with an AC wall adapter/charger in the box?

This is a good thing IMO, since I already have two AC chargers which are compatible with the Librem 14: One from a Librem 13 and another from a Tuxedo laptop. Chargers stay alive a lot longer than laptops, so it's more sustainable of I can keep using them.

I don’t get why people get so up in arms over splitting out parts from products. Would they rather the price be bumped $49 and the charger come included and people who already have one buy a pointless charger? If you don’t have one then you just factor the cost in to the purchase and if you do have one it comes out cheaper.

In a way, it’s an example of poor framing. I, too, react badly to being told the price and then discovering there are hidden extras.

They could price it in and then say “oh hey, if you already have a charger just tick this box and save yourself 50 bucks”

I really think this is the way to do it, by delighting your customers if they opt into the saving, and not insulting them if they don’t

Agreed. This article [1], though a bit old, suggests it's for idealist reasons: only these old Atheros chips have open firmware. Given that Intel processors are pretty dependent on close sourced microcode anyway and they're using a i7-10710U, I must admit I don't really see the point.

[1] https://www.pcworld.com/article/3223865/purism-librem-15.htm...

I really don't see the point either, since I somehow doubt that they have access to the source code of the Intel CPU's integrated graphics firmware. Or of the gigabit ethernet controller they're using. Or the firmware of the SSD. What exactly are they gaining by standing on principle and not using a proper modern 802.11ac/ax interface?

Yes, you are not seeing the point because you are missing it. This laptop is in a niche that's obviously not yours.

Offering as much freedom as possible comes at a price. A price paid in money, in one-generation-older hardware of some components, and in making compromises that some components are not as free as they ideally would be, but which don't have alternatives.

You don't fit that niche, apparently, but just don't go buy it then. Instead of ranting, go buy an overpriced macbook and leave other people to their own choices.

As comparison, it's like saying that current EVs are not totally carbon-neutral, too slow and too expensive so you don't see the point and keep buying cars with ICEs. You are free to have that opinion, but it's not the only one around.

Exactly what freedom is anyone gaining by using an obsolete network interface? Is there actually some profound different level of capability in the open source drivers for a qualcomm/atheros 802.11n chipset from eight years ago?

What GPL zealot freedom is gained on this thing over taking an ordinary reference-design Intel chipset business class laptop (such as from ASUS or MSI) and installing pure debian or arch on it, and never enabling a non-free repo?

"GPL zealot" is an unnecessary term. You make your choices, others make theirs. It's fascinating how much energy you are wasting commenting on an article that follows a philosophy that you seem to reject so strongly.

I don't think it's fair to criticise someone else for taking the time to engage with you in discussion on the internet.

OP wasn't rejecting the basic philosophical underpinnings of the Librem project, but merely noted the inconsistency with which they applied those principles.

Librem could have developed a pure FOSS machine if they'd chosen to do so. However, it'd have a RISK-V based chip and a bunch of other exotic components that would have rendered impractical for regular use.

Instead, Librem took the pragmatic route and chose to adopt a number of proprietary components including an Intel CPU. Despite this, they chose to bypass Intel when choosing a WiFi chip at the cost of being unable to support modern WiFi standards.

It doesn't really make a lot of sense.

> Despite this, they chose to bypass Intel when choosing a WiFi chip at the cost of being unable to support modern WiFi standards.

Not sure what you mean. Are you aware of any other WiFi adapters supporting free firmware?

Freedom of not using another binary blob.

If you don't care about that, that's ok you are in majority, but not target audience of this product.

If I still cared about laptops/notebooks I would be interested in this precisely because of it.

And sure intel (and AMD) need to have binary blobs for their cpus. Which obviously is not good. But if nobody even tries and works toward this goal, nothing will ever get done.

I doubt we will ever see x86 fully open computer. But now that Apple have led the way with M1, in 3-6 years when the rest of the industry catches up, there is at least chance of librem and others building a decent binary blob free laptop.

But you need to start somewhere.

Here is why it matters: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25504641.

> a laptop that starts at $1470 with a 802.11n wireless network interface, in the year 2021? seriously?

https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-14/

So you have the option to not have the wireless card installed (it's $29 cheaper), and buy your own wireless and install it.

Oddly enough, the only way to get your "$1470" figure I see if to remove the wireless card, so you had to have seen that.

That implies I can upgrade the wireless card. I am typing on a Thinkpad x200 (yes...from 2008) and I can (and have) upgraded the Wifi Card.

Here I found a Intel AX200 (Which supports WiFi 6):

https://www.newegg.com/fenvi-ax200ngw-pcie-half-mini-card-m-... (this is not the same card I have in my laptop, I forget where I bought the one in here).

You are free to buy it and install it (I sincerely doubt coreboot enforeces a PCI whitelist), And it looks like you will come out $10 ahead.

To be honest, I wish I could buy all of my laptops without a HD, wireless card, RAM, etc and put that all in myself (I did that for my Thinkpad x2100, and I am very happy I did)

> And then they have the gall to sell the power adapter separately from the laptop, for an extra $59? What brand new laptop on earth doesn't come with an AC wall adapter/charger in the box?

???????????????

https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-14/

I see "Power Adapter Plug", and no option to ship without one. No option is more expensive. I don't think they are only shipping a "Power Adapter Plug" without a "Power Adapter".

As someone still currently using an x200s.

Is that the same chipset you have? Because I read it wouldn’t run 802.11ac. But I also read only 4GB of ram was supported and found some fringe thread that had a specific chip that worked fine too.

I’m on the fence about upgrading and have been for years now. The x200s has served me well and I really spend most of my time either in a browser, on a terminal or using audacious...

Ive got paralysis by analysis at this point because the x200s has served me SO well

I have 8 GB, and it runs fine!

> Because I read it wouldn’t run 802.11ac.

Why not? It has a miniPCI express card, you just nedd to find a compatible one:

https://www.newegg.com/intel-7260hmw-mini-pci-express/p/N82E...

You need to make sure that you mod the whitelist so it will accept it.

(Ok so I mixed up my x2100 and my x200, my x2100 has a AX200, sorry!)

Same on 8Gb. Was just curious if you had 802.11ac wireless in the x200 too.

Ultimately..not really a huge deal for my use case really.

Yeah that chipset. I haven't stress tested it though. When I need to do something I just use wired LAN.

I take your point, but for reference at 65MbPs you could transfer 10Gb in under 3 minutes. I would imagine that's more than sufficient for the majority of people.

10GB or 10Gb? You mean gigabyte? Then 65Mbps would take ~20 minutes to transfer, which is pretty slow.

You are right! I had read it as 65MB/s, not 65Mbits/s. Thank you.

What a weird thing to be concerned about.

This is like writing an article that a Macbook Air can't play the latest Call of Duty Game

Not weird at all, and here's the rationale: Something based on full "open source" principles will stand on its own merits based on the full details of its specifications and capabilities, or it won't.

Your analogy is also a poor one because it's well known in the "thin and light" class of laptop that all of them use CPU integrated/low TDP graphics, designed first and foremost for 2D desktop performance (plus H264+HEVC encode and decode acceleration), and none of them are particularly capable of playing intensive 3D games.

If you want to game at 1080p and anything close to 60Hz with high texture details it's a fact that no matter what brand/model of laptop you buy, you're going to be buying something thicker, a bit heavier, with a discrete GPU on the PCI-E bus.

Fact is that laptops in the $1300+ class were shipping with 802.11ac 3x3 capable interfaces seven years ago. The wifi performance of a mid-2014 macbook pro will run circles around this thing.

Sure but the whole thing of "being able to transfer large files over wifi" is a very niche thing.

If that is something that you need, then you obviously are going to select hardware for it, just like you would for gaming.

WiFi performance went down on average through the decade.

Most WiFi products these days never go to an RF lab for fine tuning.

You were told the hardware just isn't available. It's as simple as that. You are surely aware of the concept of tradeoffs. This is one of them. For some, using free/open source software that respects their freedom is more important than convenience.

So buy a macbook then.

What a weird detail to make so much noise about.

My main concern for a wifi chip is not the speed. On top of the list I would place the power consumption, then the features (suspend, WoWLAN, monitoring mode, DTLS, DFS, CSA, etc...) and then the speed.

For the two first points, having an Open Source firmware helps a lot.

> and then they have the gall to sell the power adapter separately from the laptop, for an extra $59?

Where did you read this? I don't think it's the case. AFAIK you can order a second power adapter for $59.

On the Librem 14 product page, it says:

"Power Adapter $59.00 Power adapter for Librem 13, Librem 14 and Librem 15. These ship separately from your main laptop order."

This is description of a separate shopping item. Power adapter is included in laptops: https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-14-questions-and-wonder/1059....

You can buy it without a wireless network interface. Then it should be fairly easy to get a new wifi card and use that one.

The cost comes from: - having core boot pre-installed - CPU backdoors disabled by default - being guaranteed to run the OS of your choice

Probably someone else knows this better than me. But other than buying this the approach would be to buy an older or slightly older Thinkpad. Maybe upgrade CPU, SSD. Do a lot of complicated and potentially dangerous flashing of BIOS. This would take you weeks in terms of lead times of delivery. Also it would take hours of hours of work, in which you might damage components or even get the wrong one.

I would like to do this, but where am I to find the time. I would also be able to pay someone to do it, but it is not as your local computer shop will be likely to deliver. I bet that if you where

I have also heard the argument that for instance smartphone producers should not ship power adapters. Since all phones can charge via USB. This is by law in the EU at least. This means that there is an enormous waste when you are creating and shipping power adaptors to people who already have four or five at home.

This is not taking other family members into account

Oh, and since on the subject. Physically it is quite easy change the network interface on many computers. What often happens though however is that the BIOS has a whitelist containing certain device IDs. This means that the BIOS will restrict usage to one or two different devices.

So if you where to buy a state of the art laptop today, and would want to change the wifi when there is a new wifi standard. So hypothetically speaking, what if there is a new WPA3 that requires hardware support. Then you wouldn't be able to change it without rewriting and flashing the BIOS. Something that might be next to impossible if the BIOS is signed.

The power adapter is the same for different laptops in their line. Somebody upgrading or for other reasons reusing the old adapter won't need a new one and thereby saves money and trash.

Did you make the same amount of noise when Apple stopped include the phone charger? "What brand new phone on earth..."?

> And then they have the gall to sell the power adapter separately from the laptop, for an extra $59? What brand new laptop on earth doesn't come with an AC wall adapter/charger in the box?

One that's $59 cheaper than if it included a charger?

Definitely agree. Free-software buyers have money to burn. Librem should price accordingly.

> Good luck with that when you want to copy some large files

I never ever found myself, or any other person in the need for urgently copy some large files over the local network.

Then you've clearly never edited video or moved around a disk image of a virtual machine, or anything else that will tax your patience copying 5GB over shoddy wifi (nevermind things much larger than 5 gigs).

Yeah, you're right, he hasn't. Thanks for the reiteration. Not everyone uses a laptop for the same things you do. For the stuff you're talking about I wouldn't dream of doing it away from a desktop computer plugged in to GigE. For me, and many others, the sole purpose of a laptop is portability. I couldn't care less if it can't do what my desktop computer can do.

Although, if you are performing serious work loads like that, why not just take the 10s to plug in the Ethernet cable? It seems like for these use cases you already would be using the laptop with the power cable hooked up.

But that would be over internet, not over the local network. And internet is slow on average.

You can still connect to a local network via ethernet