10x the median income just isn’t that much. If you have three kids, money is still tight. I’m arguing that we are all making less and that startups are making people rich because they’re actually getting paid what they produced.
10x the median income just isn’t that much. If you have three kids, money is still tight. I’m arguing that we are all making less and that startups are making people rich because they’re actually getting paid what they produced.
You are taking home (in California; approximately) net 7.4 times what people with three kids on the median income are taking home.
If you choose to live a median lifestyle, you can save 86% of your net income and therefore retire on it within 4 years.
The "live like the median person, bank 86% of your income, and retire in 4 years" strategy works well in times of abundance, where the median person has a decent life. Once people start expecting shortages - where the median person ends up dead, or unable to complete life milestones they desire like having kids - it becomes less feasible. I've seen a large shift in expectations over the last 1-10 years (depending on how far down the income distribution you were), where more and more people are realizing that bad things might be on the verge of happening.
You have a remarkably apt username
Sorry, describing an old boss.
https://www.financialsamurai.com/scraping-by-on-500000-a-yea...
Do they really though? That's really the owners getting paid that, not all the workers. And a lot of that is really valued on the potential rather than what was actually produced to that point.
"10x the median income just isn’t that much. If you have three kids, money is still tight."
That's about $400k, right? That seems like an insane amount of money (I'm not in the Bay area).
If you extend your reach to very far out areas - you can get a better home and your dollar goes further but you're sacrificing on commute and then you don't have a very comfortable lifestyle because you're commuting really far.
A very comfortable lifestyle for most people in tech would be: two luxury cars (bmw/mercedes/porsche/modelsx), good public schools, safe and pleasant to look at neighborhood to purchase a home in, short commute distance (<30 min), and the usual lake tahoe trips, one-two vacations abroad a year, plus the usual smaller vacations, etc. You're not doing that on $400k/yr in SV. If both partners make $400k/yr then sure. I'm skipping out on the nanny, private school, prepared meals, and so forth because I think that's going above and beyond.
People I know who are at $400k/yr (household) are not buying homes in the peninsula or - just generally - close to work.
In what way is this not "comfortable"? What is your definition of "comfortable"?
Like, I grew up in a 3BR, 2 car garage house that was <2000 SqFt. It was absolutely "comfortable". I had friends who were lower income who had smaller houses who were comfortable.
You're describing an inflated, luxury lifestyle. You even sort of admit it when you say "very comfortable lifestyle for most people in tech". That's not "very comfortable", that's "very comfortable for people who are already very comfortable". I feel like this is a sort of keeping up with the joneses thing: comfortable implies "more comfortable than the median person in your social circle, where your social circle is all tech people with 400K a year or more household incomes".
Like another way of putting this is that a 400K income should allow you to afford a nice 3-BR rental and kids and save money. If you don't have kids, 400K allows you to keep a luxury apartment in SF and another one in the south bay, you know, if you want to do that.
Exactly. I consider a "comfortable" lifestyle to be a 3BR house in a safe neighborhood, 2 reliable cars, 2 week+ domestic vacations/year, plus saving enough to give a nice cushion in case of emergencies / retirement.
I'm terrible with budgeting / saving and I was doing this working for a startup on a $120k/year salary. Granted, this was 10 years ago and housing has appreciated significantly since then, but still. $200k would be more than enough to enjoy this sort of comfortable lifestyle.
And I don't put renting in the "very comfortable" category. Nor do I put "reliable" cars or domestic vacations. Safe neighborhood? It's expensive - $2m expensive.
Do you have any real insight to the CURRENT housing market in the SF Bay Area? Housing is the big cost. It's more expensive to have a garage for a Porsche than the Porsche itself. I can literally go out tomorrow and buy a 911 but CANNOT afford to put it in a garage. That's how fucking ridiculous it is.
The area isn’t that bad except for COL. Once you’re rich, it isn’t that bad. So, just get rich. That’s the basics of it. It sucks but at least there is a solution for those that are ambitious enough. Can’t fix bad weather or jobs.
"People in other areas have jobs. People in SV have careers."
This seems a little over generalized and even pompous. There are plenty of people who have careers in other areas. Just as a single example, how about the financial developers in NYC, like at Jane Street? There are plenty of people who leave SV too.
People here keep nitpicking about the generality of statements I'm making. They're not getting the general vibe and the general vibe is the point. Just because you can cherrypick some data that says there are people with careers or people with PhDs in some other area does not mean that it is like SV. Surely you understand that?
Who the fuck would move here when homes are $2-3m? People who are dedicated. That's the difference. People talk about leaving the bay area to slow down or give up careers. They don't talk about leaving the bay area to start the next big thing. (Regardless of all the BS you see about X cheap-ass company moving to Y city)
I think it's more about people who want some sort of status or virtue signaling. There are plenty of successful start ups in other cities like Seattle, NYC, NOVA, Austin, etc.
I think the reason people are "nitpicking" is because the majority of people don't live in SV. So if anything, talking about dev salary and saying $400k is barely enough, one would have to cherry pick data from SV to justify that statement.
Yes they are. I know people who've gotten them. You can find a 3br/2bath single family home with a garage, for less than 5K/mo in SF, Redwood City, Palo Alto, and tons in Sunnyvale and Mountain View.
> I can literally go out tomorrow and buy a 911 but CANNOT afford to put it in a garage.
The 911 costs more than a year's rent on said 3/2 SFH with a garage. For many, it's more than 2 years rent. Yes, if you want to own a $100k car, you'll have to sacrifice in other parts of your life.
Show me the listings! https://sfbay.craigslist.org/d/apartments-housing-for-rent/s...
You're all ignoring the general sentiment anyway. Not like it matters. Cherrypick all you want. Beating a dead horse. People are so dumb here about COL - acting as if $200k is truly enough to "very comfortably" live here. Ask any engineer in SV if they want to just stay at $200k/yr household income (and they don't own a home and they don't have wealth) for the rest of their life and they'll say no.
Yes, because people want to be more than simply comfortable.
The majority of people in tech do not work in Silicon Valley or even US tech hubs for that part. Friendly reminder entire continents across either side of the US coast by with less than 15% of that number and would live extremely comfortable lives with just the 100k that often gets tossed around here.
Is it a surprise that cost of living DIFFERS WILDLY based upon LOCATION?
They're talking about 60K being good enough on the east coast, and 100K being very nice on the east coast.
You might want to take your own advice and re-read, since I wasn't talking about developing countries either. Or should we consider Western EU, Northern EU, East Asia all as developing countries?
You're probably looking at a TCO of ~11k/month (mortgage, tax, & maintenance, and it's really more like 9.5-10k/mo after the mortgage interest tax deduction), which is arguably an unwisely large % of your ~20k post-tax take-home, assuming you're putting away a substantial amount into 401ks, but you're left with 9-10k/month, which means you can put easily waste whatever you want on luxury cars (as if you can't be "very comfortable" leasing a new Japanese sedan for under $300/month instead of lighting money on fire for the pleasure of driving less reliable vehicles).
But, I mean, you _could_ if you really wanted to. And still have enough money to travel internationally twice a year. And outsource whatever percentage of your cooking you want to takeout. I'm glad you agree that a full-time nanny would be stretching the definition of "very comfortable", and private schools seem superfluous if you're buying expensive real estate, since part of what it buys you is a spot in the local public school, and if you don't want that you can relatively trivially arbitrage it away by buying a cheaper house in a different zip code.
Is it possible that those people are making the arguably sensible decision to rent instead of buying, because the price to rent ratio in the Bay is truly absurd, and not everybody cares enough about "ownership" to spend an extra 20-30k/yr on it? That doesn't mean that they couldn't make the finances work if they had to, they just have... different priorities. Like putting an extra 20-30k/yr into the market.
I believe the OP is talking about the owners of the startups.
The tradeoff here is that if you have 3 kids, you can't afford to work at or start a startup, because your income today will be less than at a BigCo. The number of startups that will pay you 10x the median income, today, is pretty low (they're all already unicorns, which means your upside is somewhat limited) and you need to be fairly senior anyway.