Comment by donquichotte | Hacker News Reader

Comment by donquichotte | Hacker News Reader

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I have struggled to see the appeal in those electric scooters since their inception. A bicycle is superior in virtually any category: range, security, acceleration, deceleration, max speed, cargo, maintainability.

Also, operation of a bicycle does not need it to connect to a phone running an app. This is a guarantee that the device will be unusable within 5 years, when the app is abandoned, cannot be used with the iPhone 50, and Bluetooth 200.0 is incompatible with old devices, whereas I happily ride my 90's bicycle with minimal maintenance on a daily basis, while getting the additional benefit of a light exercise.

EDIT: Related to the actual product:

> With our connected app and custom GPS tracking system, you'll always know where your scooter is.

What does this mean? Is there a SIM card and an LTE subscription coming with the scooter? Or will I "know where my scooter is" while I am actually standing on it, with the phone in my pocket connected to the scooter via bluetooth?

Scooters are much smaller than bikes. You can easily take them with you in an elevator: Put it under your desk at work, store it at home. Scooters mostly drive by themselves, e-bikes need paddling. Less maintenance, less moving parts.

It's an incomparable experience.

I'd also note, on "security, acceleration, deceleration, max speed"

Security is really the same as any bike, though it's much harder to steal the wheels!

On acceleration & max speed, obviously it depends on the particular scoot, but mine is much better than a typical human on a bike. That's a Ninebot Max, costing about £600 ish

EUCs are even better in all respects and allow you to transport more as you have both hands "free".

They tend to be expensive, and there's a definite skills barrier vs a scooter.

Yes. The budget starts at 1000EUR vs 250EUR. The difference is much less once you realize that you probably want two (disc?) breaks, probably suspension, larger wheel size. When I was making the purchase it was basically same price at that point.

Yes. It takes a few hours to learn to ride an EUC. But I'd wager that EUCs are safer because of that. Most accidents on rental scooters happen to first-time/occasional users. The fact that you need to learn how to ride an EUC gives you an appreciation of how bad things can go if you push farther than your skill allows.

In the end, EUCs are safer (larger wheel doesn't get locked in small potholes), more comfortable even without suspension, break faster due to more powerful motor, and are more compact.

Probably depends on the scooter. The segway ones I've ridden sound like plasticky junk and feel like it. The original bird scooters, on the other hand, are luxurious. They are xiaomi 365s. No suspension but it didn't bother me on this scooter with the ample tires. The brakes were great. If I'm able to lock the wheels while braking, that means the brakes are stronger than the grip of rubber to road, and the only way to get better braking is stickier rubber or an ABS system. A bigger motor wouldn't help here since the brakes already overpower the tires.

I would say durable rather than luxurious. The breaks were, but I'd say the tires weren't. I am yet to experience something like this on my v8f. There are other advantages of larger motors, like ability to ride uphill at larger inclines. Scooters are easily overpowered there and essentially useless in more hilly places. Bottom line is, that I am yet to meet a person who tried an EUC and prefers a scooter.

27.5kg begs to differ. For reference xiaomi escooter weights 12kg.

Well, this 2000$ "digital lifestyle product" is a bad example for that point.

Scooters are superior in portability. If you also need to move up/down stairs or take public transport, the scooter is often easier. Storage (especially at your destination) is another thing someone pointed out. If I save 5 minutes on my commute but now have to take a 5 minute detour to the bike room, I didn't win anything.

Also, in many cities taking bikes in public transit is restricted (e.g. only outside rush hour) and/or you have to pay for the privilege. Scooters often don't fall under this rule.

Price is another factor. A non-electric scooter costs $50, new. That makes it cheap enough that you don't have to worry too much about theft, which makes handling it a lot simpler (no fiddling with a lock). This increases convenience, making it more useful. A normal electric scooter is still cheaper than an electric bike. Doesn't apply to this model obviously.

The MASSIVE plus is storage. They take up a fraction of space of even the most compact bicycle (folding or otherwise).

I would have loved an electric scooter while travelling around in an expedition truck a few years back.

That said, all the "smart" and "connected" features reduce its appeal for me. Just give me a simple ESC and im happy.

Don't forget bicycles are much safer as well. The tiny wheels on scooters make it incredibly easy to fall if you hit a good sized crack in the road, whereas a larger bicycle wheel can just roll right over it.

In Helsinki the biggest risk to cyclists is probably crashing into the rental e-scooters that litter the streets.

Bicycles are also safer, because the first-time or casual rider doesn't zoom at 15 mph on walk paths. And I really doubt scooters can break as well as a decent bike.

In France, speed of e-mobility devices is limited to 25 km/h on the streets and 6 km/h on the walk paths.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F308

Electrically powered vehicles (scooters, hoverboards, gyropods, monowheels) must use the bike path when it exists. Bicycles must travel on the roadway or on the bike path (if there is one).

The user must ride on the bike paths. If there are no bicycle lanes, the user may ride :

- on roads with a speed limit of 50 km/h, - on pedestrian areas, provided that they ride at a moderate speed (6 km/h) and do not obstruct pedestrians. Sidewalks may not be used unless authorized by the Mayor. In this case, the user must ride at a moderate speed (6 km/h) and not interfere with pedestrians.

Parking on sidewalks is permitted, provided it does not interfere with pedestrians. However, the mayor may decide to prohibit it.

Use is also permitted on private roads (e.g., private property road, driveway of a private residence).

The user must be at least 12 years old and must not exceed a maximum speed of 25 km/h. The vehicle cannot carry more than one person at a time.

The driver must wear retro-reflective equipment when

- traffic at night - or insufficient visibility during the day.

As of July 1, 2020, your vehicle must be equipped with a braking system, a horn, lights (front and rear) and rear and side reflectors.

Italian regulation is very similar https://www.interno.gov.it/it/notizie/regole-i-monopattini-e... but I am not convinced it's enough.

- speed limits are not enforced in practice

- steady 25 km/h on a bike path is still too much, where you can see 8 year olds on their first bikes, runners, animals, roller bladers and all kinds of distracted and inexperienced bikers; 25 km/h is faster than most other users on the already narrow path; 25 km/h + 25 km/h = 50 km/h in possible frontal collisions

- headlights of the e-scooters are pointed straight ahead and cannot turn away; on a straight path they basically blind other users

- in the dark, it's very difficult to estimate the distance to an approaching e-scooter, because it has only one (blinding) headlight, and it moves at a constant speed, and it moves _fast_

> A bicycle is superior in virtually any category: range, security, acceleration, deceleration, max speed, cargo, maintainability.

Is a bicycle superior in ease of learning? I know in Denmark there are a larger number of people untaught in using bikes in immigrant communities than in the native Danish community.

Also in a country where nearly everyone bikes if you don't know how it can be really embarrassing to learn.

on edit: I am supposing it is easier to learn ( could certainly be wrong but it looks easy) and if so it might just be easier to use for someone with accessibility issues in learning to bike?

Not mentioned below, but ebikes are very expensive at least in the US. $1000 gets you cheap chinese junk from Amazon, you will have to shell out more for something name brand. Even the name brand celebrated ebikes on reddit use pretty junky bike hardware, so you are spending $1500 for $150 of bike and $1350 of electric components that are usually proprietary to these tiny ebike companies that appeared suddenly 5 years ago (and might dissapear just as suddenly). They are also so heavy, some of the ones on amazon are 60 pounds which is to heavy for some.

On the other hand, anyone can hold a scooter with one hand. They go about the same range somehow as most ebikes I see on the market that are below $2000 (~20 mile range), and cost generally around $400 or less if you go on craigslist.

> "A bicycle is superior in virtually any category"

A bicycle needs to be parked somewhere. Leave it in the streets of Paris, it is guaranteed to be stolen in less than 24h in some shady neighbourhoods, a few weeks in most places.

https://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/itineraire-d-un-velo-vole...

Some buildings have bike storage, but not all of them, by far.

OTOH a foldable e-scooter (not the ones that we're discussing here, though) can be stored in an apartment.

There's also the health benefits. Unless you have health issues no one needs assistance in walking or cycling unless the distance is long and I'm guessing then that it would be too far for an electric scooter too.

I used to use a manual scooter to get to work and it was a lot of fun and good exercise - although the harder wheels back then were hell on my knees.

> Unless you have health issues no one needs assistance in walking or cycling

That's a huge generalisation. There are many reasons why it might be quite impractical for somebody to walk or bike to work, yet perfectly fine to take an electric scooter.

Bikes aren't great for the 'last mile' where you might get off a train and have a bit further to go. You can ride a scoot in pedestrianised areas too normaly, and you can't on a bike. Far harder to stash a bike behind your desk at the office, much easier with a scoot.

Of course the downside of this convenience is stealability.

1. They're fun

2. No perspiration

3. No physical exertion

4. As already mentioned, good for taking on trains/public transport then using for the last couple of miles.

I'll be getting an e-scooter in London as soon as they're legal.

> A bicycle is superior in virtually any category: range, security, acceleration, deceleration, max speed, cargo, maintainability.

Also: Safer

This is an October 2018 article from the Financial Times. Reading it changed my opinion on E-Scooters:

Global rise of scooter use sparks safety fears: https://www.ft.com/content/5a0c6226-c809-11e8-ba8f-ee390057b...

Non-Paywalled Version: https://archive.md/9FwzH#selection-1665.0-1665.46

Note: E-Bikes are known to be quite dangerous. I would not ride on one unless I had both an /airbag vest/ [1] and an /airbag helmet/ [2]. At least if you injure yourself, you are less likely to have a spinal cord injury or head injury from using it.

[1] https://en.helite.com/products/bsafe-airbag-cyclists/

[2] https://hovding.com/

I've ridden (25 km/h limited) e-bikes and I don't see how they're significantly more dangerous than regular bikes.

The e-bikes I've ridden had much better brakes and wheels than regular bikes too.

Good for you, I guess. I hope it stays that way.

This was a December 2019 article:

E-bikes show distinct pattern of severe injuries: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-ebike-injuries-idU...

> "The authors analyzed emergency department data collected from 2000 to 2017 by the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission’s National Electronic Injury Surveillance System (NEISS), on injuries involving all three types of vehicles."

> "While people riding e-bikes were more likely to suffer internal injuries and be hospitalized compared to the other riders, powered scooter users had higher rates of concussion. E-bike injuries were also more than three times as likely to involve a collision with a pedestrian than either scooter or traditional bike injuries, the researchers report in the journal Injury Prevention."

Hence, this is why I recommend an airbag vest. While bones can heal, other things cannot.

Correlation =/= causuation.

Probably its caused by e-bikes being far more popular amongst the elderly. Here, in the Netherlands, typically only the elderly ride on e-bikes.

Also, e-bikes allow the rider to go far faster than they would normally do. Probably more fair to compare moped vs e-bike (and corrected for the age of the driver).

Obviously causation doesn’t equal correlation.

But, I should point out that your two paragraphs contradict each other, via logic.

Also, I have a physical disability due to a 2 rare immune mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system. Somehow, I have reflexes in both my ankles and knees. The emphasis is on somehow.

Unfortunately, the people that can often benefit the most from an E-Bike are frequently the ones who probably shouldn’t be using one. It is not just neurological impairment, either.

There are kits to convert your bike into an E-Bike, which I imagine can be used for handbikes, which is good news, as it is a lot safer. The problem is that it definitely cannot be taken on public transport.

In that case, the best option is a manual wheelchair (often paid for by national/public/private health insurance) with a Batec Electric Cycle [1] that attaches to the wheelchair. Still, a full helmet (covering jawline) and a wheelchair seatbelt would be advisable.

[1] https://www.49bespoke.com/index.php/products/batec-mobility

Many people feel scooters are fun to drive. It's not about common sense.

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