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Comment by twobitshifter | Hacker News Reader

My company promotes themselves as a “flat connected organization” yet our CEO has adamantly stated that work from home will not be possible as long as he is CEO. This is despite the company doing better than ever. He leans on a belief that some ephemeral energy and cultural value is being sapped away from working remotely and that we are “running on fumes” through COVID. I don’t believe any of it, and the company has continued making management changes and major acquisitions throughout the pandemic, fundamentally altering any concept of a pre-existing work Nirvana.

Our regional president also is anti WFH. He claims that WFH would eliminate quality mentorship that he experienced and the ad hoc conservations over lunch that lead to friendships and new business opportunities. This is a better angle, but it’s also not something that happens for everyone, everyday, or can be used to justify 5 days in the office.

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I’m so tired of this “ad hoc water cooler chat” suddenly being elevated as the most important part of office work. It’s never in the past been valued by these execs, and on the contrary sometimes punished (hey, quit socializing and get back to work!). But, now, all of a sudden when these execs are scrambling to find some reason to return to the office, they trot out “serendipitous hallway conversations” as the great holy reason for the office’s existence. Sorry, but I call bullshit.

When you can't point to something quantifiable, I guess you point to something like "water cooler chat!"

My feeling is the same: while random interactions are important, they aren't exclusive to an office setting. Weird logic. It's been surprising to me how much ink has been spilled about this, and how few solutions have been offered.

Exactly this. I've had as many "serendipitous hallway conversations" in the last year as I had in the years before - just this time, they happened on IM, on videocalls, and in code review comments.

A small group of co-workers willing to sometimes go off a tangent in a conversation is all it takes. Doesn't have to be face to face, much less in a hallway or in front of a water cooler.

This. You know what happened the first week I was back at the office? Non-work chit chat taking up hours of time.

If it's really valuable information, write it down so even more people can be exposed to it! It's like that saying about meetings: "this could have been an email."

> running on fumes

I think management people are likely running on fumes … it's like the inverse of what introverts feel when they have to be in-office 5 days a week I suspect.

I'd add that the second take is also kind of outmoded, in that it assumes that mentorship, friendship, business opportunities must flow through your company. I've actually found more of this during the pandemic, and apart from my company …

True, serendipity (e.g. water cooler conversation) is harder in remote environments, but not unsolvable …

It's not (mainly) about introverts vs extroverts, it's about high status vs low status.

I guess not having your ass kissed daily must feel like "running on fumes".

Fair. My comment did imply that managers / those who feel "drained" by remote working are extroverts, which may be untrue.

On that: I think extroverts can tend to derive value from external factors, which may make them more hungry for praise (especially public).

(Edited because earlier version was murky)

I'm sure the vast majority of managers are extroverts, and introverted managers would be more ok with remote-work.

The upper management folks also have big, comfy, quiet offices with floor-to-ceiling windows, and an assistant right outside the door to bark orders to.

The people working in cubicle-hell or open-office purgatory generally aren't the ones clamoring to get back inside the building. If offices were redesigned to give more rooms with doors to the people who want them so they can do some quiet focused work, even if it's not an assigned space, I think you'd see much more eagerness to return.

> an assistant right outside the door to bark orders to.

And that same assistant will screen time with the boss, something us plebs don't get.

This is key. These aren’t bad ideas. Face time is important, non work proximity is important (ie lunch). None of this requires 5 day a week presence.

> This is a better angle, but it’s also not something that happens for everyone, everyday, or can be used to justify 5 days in the office.

It's not, really.

To think of it another way: what would happen if your mentors left for better jobs, got hit by a bus or even just retired? People need to be documenting things so that knowledge isn't lost and can be passed on to many more people. If it's really that valuable, just think of how much more of an impact it will have when it doesn't have to be passed on one-to-one.

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