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I think partially it's that mainstream social media has become a hell-hole.

I've found HN to be much better for discussion in general (recognizing that this is not the case for everyone), and have participated in IRC rooms and whatnot where if I spent more time I could probably consider the people there friends, while still retaining individualism.

I tend towards grumpy isolationism however, so I may not be a good standard.

I think your observations are accurate. I've also noticed the problem, and that private-ish group conversations like WhatsApp groups and small Discord servers are so much better than Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and co. The only problem is discoverability -- because groups like these are private, it's very hard to discover the ones you'd like to join.

I'm currently working on an early-stage startup on this space, and we're specifically trying to solve the discoverability problem while keeping the group chats themselves small and private (or at least private enough). Do you think you could see yourself using something like this?

Discoverability is an anti-feature. Small groups are good because they have a small number of long term users who you get to know. Everyone is less inclined to troll because they are emotionally invested in the group and being on good terms with other users.

How you end up in these groups is you either get invited by real life friends or you hang around in a big public group for a while, make friends with people who will then invite you to these smaller groups.

Because users have to be invited rather than just finding the group on a search page, the users are of higher quality and share similar interests.

> Do you think you could see yourself using something like this?

Myself personally, probably not. I mentioned I tend a bit towards grumpy isolationism, that's very much the truth.

I will participate in communities I stumble on, but can't see myself seeking them out.

That being said, if I were seeking a community, I could definitely see myself using a service like that.

We should start a new board for grumpy isolationists. You only get to join if you'd really rather not be bothered.

> Maybe the internet isn't what it used to be or something.

I really think this is what it is. Internet discussion forums used to self-select for curious people actively seeking out discussion. It wasn't hard to find meaningful interactions because most people who sought out forums were looking for something similar. Now that everyone is on the internet, the random person you interact with likely doesn't have the same disposition as before.

as I get older I struggle to see the magic and joy of something new because nothing really is new anymore and just a variation of something previously experienced. Perhaps the Internet has changed for the worse idk it's impossible to measure since I have also changed too much to be able to gauge this properly myself.

I do know that my own and others expectation of Tech (from the mid 90ies) was just another utopia and I resent myself for drinking the Kool-aid, and hate myself for having gotten a job in Tech and playing my tiny part in being an ambassador for this type of future among the small group of people I had influence over (family, friends etc who all wished they did the same seeing my salary and lifestyle with much envy). I was so convinced of science and Tech being the answer to all problems we create that I thought teaching my kids to use Tech is a good use of time. But today I can't bring back time and I hate myself for it because I could have gone for a walk with them in the woods and created real memories instead.

another thing that hits me as I get old is it's becoming harder to make new connections IRL. I see my old friends having given up on life by refusing to get out of a stuck marriage, getting fat and lazy, having lost their confidence and ability and interest to do anything new, and the best I can get from them is a statement about what's cool on Netflix these days.

Then I look at myself and realize that I'm as much a slave to the algorithm as them even I do everything to not be part of this. There simply is no escape[1]. I gave up all social media years ago (except HN) and spend at least 2-3 hours outside every day. And my hate shifts from "Tech in general" to myself because I know there is no way out. Perhaps people like David Foster Wallace and others who are no longer with us have seen it coming years ago, and knew there are only 2 options: a) avoid others and be happy with just myself or b) off myself. I'm doing an OK job (I think) managing a) but I can't claim that I'm not looking forward to the day I snuff it either. It feels like the only thing that is worse than dealing with my own judgement and myself is dealing with the judgement or opinions of others (see the idea of "Hell is other people" from "No Exit")

[1] The Technological Society by Jacques Ellul https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSoci...

I've certainly spent my time in hell of the "hell is other people" variety. I've spent my time there both in my youth before the internet took over the world and in recent years after it did.

Because of the internet, I've had friends -- real friends who were extremely important to me -- in Canada, in Guam and in the Middle East. They helped save my life and shape my character.

While largely housebound due to my health, the internet was how I had close relationships with people the world over without exposing me to their germs or them to mine.

I left my corporate job that was helping to kill me and slept in a tent for a few years while trying to figure out how to make a few bucks online. That helped save my life and helped me get healthier when there's not supposed to be any hope for me.

Once, my oldest son said to me "There's both good and evil in all things." I thought that was profound and life giving and eye opening.

I asked him where he learned such profound wisdom given his relative youth. He told me I taught him that. He learned it from me.

That was even more surprising. I didn't have any memory or awareness of having done any such thing.

I don't hate tech. I see tremendous untapped potential in it to build a better world and I flail about trying to figure out how to write about it knowing that I have no audience and I have no credibility and no one believes my story.

I start little blogs that peter out and go nowhere. I start little reddits that sometimes have me as the only member for ages.

And I'm sorry to hear that someone who likely de facto helped to save my life by being one of the cogs in the machine that built the tech that helped me live when, by all rights, I should have died is someone so bitter and disillusioned with the very thing I still find wondrous and life giving and a means to connect with people in spite of my incurable condition and compromised immune system.

I had a bone marrow transplant in 1989. I had to remain isolated for about a year. Back when 12 months seemed like forever.

I started a BBS network. That was my social life. Those digital pen pal friends were my life line. Probably the most intense, intimate relationships I've ever had.

I don't know what happened in the medium transitions since. Dial up to internet, FidoNet to UUCP & NNTP, FTP & Gopher to HTTP, multiuser to MMORPG, blogs to social media, desktop to laptop to mobile, social media to livestream.

Maybe it's like Chomsky tried to warn us: Anything ad supported is bad for us.

Maybe it's like David Graeber suggests: While winner-takes-all is something like a natural law, we can always find nooks and corners to connect with each other and have genuine relationships.

I really dunno.

I think it's a case of innocence lost. Having been burned, I can no longer trust people I meet online.

Long ago, I trusted people I met online in a way I can't anymore and that creates a barrier that protects me from potential predators, but it also keeps out potential friends. Multiply that across literally billions of people and it's a hard problem to solve.

I don't think the tech, per se, is the problem. We opened a social Pandora's Box and having seen how things can go wrong at scale, we optimize for trying to guard against potential evil rather than for fostering good.

With that, our fears deepen. It becomes a case of "Going to war to preserve the peace is like fucking to preserve virginity."

Ultimately, it comes back to the people and how they live their lives and what is in their minds. Tech is a problem because we've decided The Tech is the problem rather than deciding how we use it is The Problem.

Then we very ironically design new apps to remedy our problems rooted in the idea that The Tech is the problem rather than designing new philosophies and new ideas and new social norms which has historically been the effective remedy for social ills.

I think living thru transitions helps provide perspective.

I'm casually rereading the media and technology critics. McLuhan, Postman, Chomsky, Shirky, Orwell, others. It's kind of amazing how prescient some of their observations were.

Thanks for the Ellul tip. Will read.

>I just thought it was me

As a counter anecdote, I have a group of about 15 real friends on the internet that I met mostly on an instant messaging app. Real friends to the point of meeting up and going on holidays together without actually knowing their full real names.

It can be "a little of column A and a little of column B." Conditions being generally worse will hit some people harder than others.

I'm not suggesting that it's simply impossible to make constructive connections anymore. I'm only saying that I spent some years thinking the change was 100 percent about me and my life and maybe it wasn't 100 percent me.

Maybe it was at least partly general conditions. And I couldn't see that because my life being derailed was very in my face and I just figured that was the entire explanation.

You're not wrong, the internet isn't what it used to be. Google "2007 the year when the internet went to shit" to get a minuscule glimpse of what happened.