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Comment by outside1234 | Hacker News Reader

Does this mean they have shifted their focus to cheating on battery capacity?

From what I have seen VW had a sort of genuine reckoning with the whole diesel issue. They have reinvented themselves, shed cruft, cut all fuel vehicle development and completely devoted themselves to an electric future (vehicles, batteries, chargers). They have turned things around wholesale and are now producing amazing, relatively affordable electric vehicles (their new id.4 SUV will debut in the US for just a little more than a tricked out Honda CR-V, once you factor in the federal tax credit).

I was excited by Tesla but they remained expensive. Now feel like VW will have a chance to bring electric vehicles to a much larger group of people... a group I fit into and I can't wait.

So can I now go into a VW / Audi dealer in North America and buy an EV off a lot?

Because every time I look (and I've looked constantly since I traded my Jetta TDI for cash in dieselgate) I still can't. And they are issuing a new press release every few months promising mass production EVs next year.

Back in 2017/2018 when this all went down they actually removed all electrified cars from their lineup. Stopped making new Audi A3 e-Trons, removed the hybrid Jetta from their lineup, and only made about 500 outdated (several year old design) eGolfs with a small battery for all of the Canadian market with a year and a half waiting list to get in one. All the while trumpeting how committed they were to electrification and how this was the future. So, I bought a GM EV instead.

And, yep, I just went to the local VW dealer's website and they have only one car with an electric motor in it, the 2019 eGolf with a 35kWh battery. That's it and I know exactly how it would go down if I were to call the dealer and ask to test drive one.

And last I looked the id.3 isn't coming to North America and the id.4 is a "maybe next year" kind of deal and the electric van they've been promising since about 2015 is now projected for 2023 when I recall in previous press releases talk about it coming out several years ago.

I'm sorry, they're greenwashing, they're desperate, and they're trying to milk as much out of the ICE while they can while playing a PR game. People trash GM's EV efforts as "compliance cars" but at least I can actually buy a Bolt.

> And last I looked the id.3 isn't coming to North America and the id.4 is a "maybe next year" kind of deal and the electric van they've been promising since about 2015 is now projected for 2023 when I recall in previous press releases talk about it coming out several years ago.

This is false, the ID4 is already being sold in US. ID3 is in fact not going to US.

What I've read is: very limited quantities for 2021. At least for us here in Canadia. I've seen this enough with VW to know that that means a few hundred almost all sent to Quebec (which has California-like EV quotas while other provinces don't).

This is basically my take too - dealers suck and will make this an uphill battle even if VW is being honest about their EV intentions.

GM has improved now, but when I looked at Volts it was similar (dealers knowing nothing, actively hostile to me trying to buy a car from them).

I have a Model 3 now and think its features are really not available in the competition at any price point, but especially sub 40k.

My Audi dealer has the e-tron.

It's going to take a lot more than going completely EV for me to for me to believe they have changed. Of course they went to EVs, it's the market. Of course they changed course, they were dealing with one of their worst scandals of all time. Of course they say they've changed, but how can we really trust them anymore?

Given where they are today would they need to do to cause you to believe they have changed?

A full blown social media crucifixion and cancellation to appease the frothing masses. Then [user] can reap the feel good vibes of knowing that even though they missed out on the Summer of Love, they were there when VW got served.

Good grief, no one believes in contrition anymore. No one even believes in the past or the future. They were always this way, they're this way now, and they always will be! There are no mistakes, only lapses that expose your "true" eternal character.

If they ran a campaign of donating to environmental protection charities, carbon capture, or some other means of protecting the planet, with a value equal to that of the money of the revenue of their diesel cheating vehicles sales, I would say they have changed.

Until then, I still think they are doing what they do for the sake of profit.

They are always doing what they do for the sake of profit, it's just that being profitable is harder when the planet is fucking on fire.[1][2]

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/triple-bottom-line.asp

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E

If they did what you suggest, wouldn't you also conclude that they are doing it for the sake of (future) profit?

I would, but also, if they can rectify the damage they have done, then it becomes easier to forgive. I understand all companies seek profit and need to. I'm not against that, but I am against doing it illegally while harming our health and environment.

Despite all the focus on Tesla, companies that makes a minimal, good and inexpensive electric car/truck will win big as far as I'm concerned. Bonus points for an iconic look.

Both of those are hard. A big powerful sedan is the best case for electric. You get the big power for free, and you don't end up that heavier or more expensive than a powerful gasoline drivetrain.

Small low power cars and trucks that need to be able to tow are the worst case. Giving up the big power doesn't really save you any mass or cost, and trucks need a bigger gas "tank". But perhaps if the tabless and structural battery thing works out, it will get us to both of those cases.

Base model ID.4 SUV for approximately $33,000 (price taking US government tax break into account. $39,995-$7,500) is getting very close to that. A mid-20's priced EV would be amazing but low 30's is starting to get within range of a lot of people (and it ends up being nearly $10,000 less than nearest competitor Tesla's Model Y... best price I could find was $41,290... which sadly no longer qualifies for the same tax break. If it did I would probably say the Tesla is a better deal).

Here's the EV that is outselling Tesla in China. Priced at US$5k: https://thedriven.io/2021/03/01/wuling-mini-outsells-tesla-m...

Maybe not iconic, however.

Isn't that Teslas turf? Seems to be the only company that includes reserve / zero range remaining in its official EPA numbers.

To do that all they have to do is advertise the Euro WLT ratings.

NEFZ was unrealistic so we better introduce WLTP, which is even more unrealistic. Cool.

According to Wikipedia ratings under WLTP are much lower than under NEDC so your comment doesn't seem to make a ton of sense to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Harmonised_Light_Veh...

Remember how i said "unrealistic" and not "lower"? WLTP is a rather unrealistic way to determine fuel consumption or energy usage on cars. If you look at sites which collect fuel usage for cars you often times see fuel usages considerably higher than what WLTP defines. Especially if it's a PHEV since WLTP expects a full battery all the time. Under 2L/100km for a 2 ton SUV is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination. The numbers on https://www.spritmonitor.de/ for example seem to allign more with EPA in my experience.

> Especially if it's a PHEV since WLTP expects a full battery all the time. Under 2L/100km for a 2 ton SUV is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination. The numbers on https://www.spritmonitor.de/ for example seem to allign more with EPA in my experience.

There's a question as to what you're trying to model; if you're looking at daily usage then relatively short distances from fully charged are probably relatively representative of a lot of usage (the mean and median distances driven on a daily basis are relatively short distances!).

https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/0-All_manufactures/0... shows that data is somewhat all over the place v. manufacturer data, with some being close and others very far away from it.

In reality, I suspect what would be useful is to have a further cycle based on a 100km journey largely on a motorway, as a long-distance extra-urban cycle?

Very good question: WLTP has just a number for you.

PHEVs may not be a good idea depending on your driving style. There should be more discussion about what type of engine is the correct one for you before buying. Do you drive enough motorway regularly that a diesel would make sense? Do you drive shorter distances but you cannot charge? Can you charge but you sometimes need more range? Maybe even a PHEV diesel would make sense, but that is a type of vehicle that was rare and is now even rarer.

Technology was improved a lot over the last decades. If you'd record the WLTP tests you could maybe build a system which would accurately calculate your fuel usage for your type of driving and define if a PHEV or a diesel would make any sense for you.

So your criticism is actually in the context of ICE and PHEVs - I assumed you meant pure EVs since that what this thread seemed to be about, and for those autonomy numbers seem to be strictly lower, hence my confusion why WLTP would be more doctored in this regard than NECD.

I have looked at the Model 3 and Hyundai Ioniq and even there the energy usage seems to be rather off. 15 kWh/100km WLTP vs 19 kWh/100km according to spritmonitor on the Model 3. 11 vs 14 with the Ioniq.

So yeah, it seems like WLTP is not really accurate for EVs either.

Right, but then that number would have been even more off with NEDC, since that would give them higher range / lower consumption figures.

That seems to be true with Teslas. But at the end of the day it does not matter, since the number that you get with WLTP is useless.

WLTP?

You get cheated every day by big corps and don't complain do you?

I think I'm complaining in my own way right now :)

Or just conveniently try to escape their shady origins.

Only Clean Diesel's will get this joke

That doesn't really fit their mo. They'll probably cheat on efficiency.

Do you have any genuine insight into VW company culture, or are you just extrapolating from one scandal?

Just one little old scandal, huh.

Well to be honest the cheating was pretty much only done so the cars wouldn't be unbearably slow. And every other european car manufacturer basically did the same. Once the targets become impossible to reach for everyone, you start cheating.

That isn't true. It was done so they didn't have to install NOx cleaning technologies. Modern US based diesels have SCR, and EGR systems that help remove NOx and particulates from the exhaust (or prevent it from forming). However, they add thousands to the cost and complexity.

SCR systems are very expensive in modern VWs as well. Especially to repair. With the additional pressure on the engine because of restrictive exhausts engines also don't last as long. EGR systems on diesels are known to gunk up. VW used SCR systems since 2009 if you didn't know.

Yep, you have bureaucrats at the EPA pulling numbers out of their asses that become impossible to meet and still have a car that people would want or can afford. So they find a way to meet the "letter of the law" and pass the tests. Sort of like what CPAs do when they prepare your tax return.

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