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Comment by nathanyukai | Hacker News Reader

what do you mean by invade? Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong are undoubtedly belongs to China. Sure the tightening is not good in a lot of ways, but I keep seeing the western media trying to convince the world that these regions should be 'independent', I wonder why they are doing that.

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The "undoubtedly belong to China" is the narrative from the CCP and not shared by many, especially peoples living in and native to those regions.

"especially peoples living in and native to those regions." lol, check American history please.

Yeah, it's quite a shitty history, as is what CCP is doing

Hehe, good one.

It's a concerted propaganda effort that is unfortunately not helped by the multitudes of people that uncritically accept their home country's stance on everything.

Tibet was independent before it was taken over by force

It was part of China during the Qing dynasty since 1750.

They declared independence in 1913 after the fall of the Qing but it was not recognized by the Chinese Republican govt.

The PRC re-annexed it in 1951.

By that argument the UK could re annex parts of France and the USA.

And Italy could take back large chunks of the near east.

Conversely, if not for that argument, China would be a hodgepodge of local warlords (what it was post Qing, before ROC's unification). A problem of claims by irredentism is what time period do you consider the proper extent of a nation's territory?

This applies to both the rationalisation of Tibet belonging to China, and for not belonging.

Good question.

If you can't force the issue (i.e Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Cyprus, Crimea) via a force of arms or diplomacy.

Their independence lasted 39 years and was not recognized by the new central govt which had bigger issues to deal with.

Calais was lost in 1558 and UK monarch stopped using the title "King Of France" in 1800 so it is a settled issue.

Not only near east. By that logic Italy can rightfully claim almost all of today's Western Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire

And Corsica was part of Italy (or italian states at least) for 5 centuries and only part of France relatively recently. According to your logic it should return to Italy?

If it was part of Qing, and Qing fell, why should Chinese Republican govt and/or PRC have any say in the matter?

ROC took over the assets and liabilities of the qing, just like russia did with the soviet union

What liabilities did the Russian oligarchs take on?

existing treaties with china, us, plus nuclear arsenal etc.

Oligarchs manage treaties with China, nuclear arsenal etc?

So Tibet belongs to the ROC and the mainlanders have no rights to it... Interesting.

PRC, ROC and Tibet can claim all the rights it wants, but buddy, you have to back it up militarily and politically.

how about texas and mexico?

What do I mean by invade? Simply ask anyone in Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, or Taiwan, if they want mainland Chinese there, or if they want to be governed by the CCP. I accept that territory is won or lost, and the Tibetans and Uyghurs lost their territory, but they were definitely invaded and conquered.

I have asked many people in those regions excluding Xinjiang, and the answers are never as black and white as the narratives you read online.

In Tibet, people were not too happy about the military presence on the streets, the cultural assimilation or the mao statue in the shadow of Potala palace, but on balance are were happy to be part of China due to the economic development. People felt they would be unemployed without han presence.

In Hong Kong, the most common thing I heard was vaguely racist grumblings about mainlanders. People were unhappy with mainlanders behaving in an "uncivil" manner. There was a majority acknowledgement of China's sovereignty over Hong Kong, and a strong "Chinese" identity.

In Taiwan, things did fit your narrative pretty closely. People want nothing to do with the CCP, and many even wanting nothing to do with the mainland at all.

> In Hong Kong, the most common thing I heard was vaguely racist grumblings about mainlanders. People were unhappy with mainlanders behaving in an "uncivil" manner. There was a majority acknowledgement of China's sovereignty over Hong Kong, and a strong "Chinese" identity.

Really interested to know when did you talk to the people in Hong Kong. What you described might have been the views of some Hong Kong people 10 years ago, but it's definitely not the mainstream view nowadays.

Yea, it was a while ago. 2012 to 2015 I visited many times.

Well, if you are correct, the CCP could/would organize a public vote in Tibet and Hongkong, just like France did in New Caledonia. That is how you handle such a question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Caledonian_independen...

I'm just reporting some anecdotes from my personal experience that I thought were relevant to the discussion. I don't see how that can be "correct" or not.

I agree with you on the principle of the right to self-determination, but it's not so clearly defined. I.e. how do you define "peoples'? I can't succeed from my nation just because me and my family would like to start a principality. At what point does a group become a 'people' deserving of the right to self-determination?

Historically that is done when you either known the result will fall your way or you don't really care.

If California might have a small risk of voting to leave the US do you think the government would hurry and let them vote or try to block it?

I cannot think of a single example where there was a vote of independence where it wasn't either forced (by unrest, war, etc.) or the result was know or didn't matter much. Votes of independence are rarely happening under nice circumstances.

This is how it should be done:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Caledonian_independen...

or of course:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Scottish_independence_ref...

Have you read any well done and independent surveys that support your claim ? Majority does not support the take over like this and chinese identity is much less than hker identity.

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