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Comment by imgabe | Hacker News Reader

I spent most of 2020 working from home, for the first time in 16 years of working. I surprised myself by finding that I don't really like working from home.

I have a decent home office setup: dedicated room, nice chair, big monitor, but I still don't get as much done as going to a different physical place that's dedicated to work.

I think what I hated was not the office, but the open office, which is truly awful. I started a new job and now I have an office to go. I'm currently sharing with a couple people (who are rarely there) and soon will have a dedicated private office. It's a world of difference.

I think most people who hate the office really hate: open offices, long commutes, being required to be there for specific times. If you could get rid of those most people probably wouldn't mind and might even prefer the office.

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I got my job during the pandemic; it's my first actual tech-related job. So I've never seen my coworkers in person. But I can get my work done for the day within 3 to 4 hours, and my manager is happy with how much work I'm doing, and the pace at which it happens. That means that for the rest of the day around those 4 hours, I can do whatever I want.

I can't do that in the office. If I were to go into the office, I'd need to either (a) spend longer over the same tasks to stretch them to fill out the day because I'm constantly being observed, or (b) finish my work at the same rate and ask for more work. Both of those options are obviously not ideal from my perspective as someone who wants to expend the minimal amount of time to get work done.

Why would I want to wake up earlier, commute, set up at work, not eat what I want (or what I can at home) - just to sit at a computer, something I could do at home. At least at home I can 'finish early' (save for meetings). Going physically into the office is not in any way to my benefit. It's a lose/lose/lose/lose/... situation for me. I'm seriously considering getting another job that's almost entirely remote-only.

Seconding this. For individuals who can't separate work and play without physically separating them, yeah, I get you. I just don't have that problem, and there are almost no benefits to meeting in person for me.

Additionally, WFH (especially remote-only) gives me a chance to move to a bigger place outside the big city without having to balance the choices of between a small, cramped space for a shorter commute, or a bigger place with a longer commute. I like living in a place where the air is a little cleaner, there is more space and I don't have to commute for 1-2 hours back and forth on public transport or drive a car (at least not most days in the week).

A bigger place in turn solves the issue with penny-pinching or bureaucracy-heavy companies making it difficult to create a work environment which suits me. Yes, money is still a thing, but when tech is something you love anyway, spending a few hundred / thousand bucks on a work environment which will last 10 years is not that big of an issue.

At least right now, its a cycle which reinforces itself very nicely for its benefactors.

Going skiing for 2 hours a day is 1000x better than going to the office. I get to meet _real_ people who don’t _have_ to tolerate me because we work together. Yes this is super cynical and real relationships form at work, but for the most part, work relationships are transactional and ephemeral.

In addition (for me at least), working from home means that I can open the window and get some fresh air. I've never worked in professional offices with windows that open and there was never enough ventilation. My nightmare is a long meeting in a cramped conference room - hours of breathing in a mix of carbon dioxide, sweaty feet odors and respiratory droplets.

100% this. Ever since wfh started, I never had a single "brain melt" that regularly happened in the office due to 1h+ meeting in 4 sqm room and co2 levels going through the roof.

Yep, as someone who works sporadically but intensely, I much prefer getting everything done in half a day and then leaving early and enjoying the sunshine. If I was managed in such a way that I needed to find something to do to fill the rest of the time, I would be unhappy and have poor output because of the nature of ADHD.

> But I can get my work done for the day within 3 to 4 hours, and my manager is happy with how much work I'm doing, and the pace at which it happens. That means that for the rest of the day around those 4 hours, I can do whatever I want.

This is on purpose: as a senior dev, I estimate 1 point to 4 hours of coding work. (Roughly.)

Of the other 4 hours in your day, I expect roughly 1 hour CR stuff/editing wikis/answering emails, 1-2 hours meetings, 0-1 hour learning, and 1 hour walking in circles between things/bathroom/coffee.

Welcome to a “work day”.

The part of the office that’s a benefit is those two hours of coffee + learning can be with other people — and those 1-2 hours of meetings tend to be more productive.

> "If I were to go into the office, I'd need to either (a) spend longer over the same tasks to stretch them to fill out the day because I'm constantly being observed, or (b) finish my work at the same rate and ask for more work."

You might also consider trying c) Spend that extra time learning a new career skill that both benefits you in the long run and your employer in the short run. That's been my principle and it has served me well over a lengthy career.

I'm struggling with your comment. What's the difference between the dedicated room you have at home, and the dedicated office at work, which you state is mainly empty except for you? Is it a mindset thing? You just can't get into a 'work' mode whilst at home?

I'm totally in the other camp - I love working from home, and have been home-based for over 4 years now (dedicated room and set-up etc.). The only difference that covid has brought, is that my partner is now also work-from-home, which interestingly has impacted my productivity somewhat; We prefer to just sit around and chat, than focus on work - It now takes a bit more effort to get my head down and focus. :)

All that said, I'd still not want to go back into an office. Here in London, this means over an hour commute each way, on typically standing-room only trains, and then 8 hours in noisy open-plan with tiny desks, and your stuff kept in a locker.

Ultimately it's down to choice: Going forwards I'd like to see companies offer the choice of working in the office, or working from home. That way everyone can work in a location that suits them best.

I too have come to realize that I in many ways miss the office. The main thing is the clear separation between home and work both mentally and physically.

At work I had my work desk with my work computer and work files and my work stuff. At home I had my home desk and home computer. When at home I could not (easily) access my work computer or work files. When at work I could not access my home computer and home files. It made it easy to compartmentalize the two and stop one bleeding into the other. There was something definitive about walking out of the office for the day that I kind of miss.

I also liked my 'commute', which was either a 20 minute bus ride or a 50ish minute walk. It gave me a chance to clear my head, refocus and switch 'modes'.

Going forwards I'd like to see companies offer the choice

Obviously agree. As much as I really do miss the office, I hope to never again have a job where I am forced to be there 5 days a week.

Part of it is the separation. Another part is that it becomes a little depressing for me to be in the same place all day every day. There’s just no variety in your day. Going to an office you at least are in a different place for a while, there’s other people around, even if they’re not right in the office with me. Commuting you see different things and get a feel for what’s going on. There’s an outside world.

I mean sure you can go for walks and run errands while you’re working from home, but somehow it wasn’t the same for me.

It's the separation of church and state, right? Obviously annecdata, but a pretty decent amount of people I know struggle with the blurry lines that working from home brings.

Like, it's easy to say "when I put on work clothes [whatever they may be] and leave the house to go to the office I'm 'working'." You're paid to go to a place and sit there for 7 hours. Everything that happens in that time is easy to mentally stick in the "they're paying me for this" box.

If you're working from home and sat on the sofa wearing your PJs from the night before until midday the separation is much harder. Does the working day start when you read that first email on your phone at 7.15am (that normally you don't worry about until you're on the train)? When does it end? What if someone emails when you're making your dinner? Does it feel like replying to a work email at home, or an extension of your working day?

This all seems to be amplified greatly if you're not particularly fussed about your job. FWIW and in my experience - the people who do the best working from home get at least some kind of work satisfaction, and are also best at properly defining their working day and getting in to it as if they were actually leaving the house.

The trick from working from home is finding that separation between home and work. In particular, you want to make sure you _don't_ work in the sofa wearing your PJs.

I do a fake bike commute before and after work and it's done wonders for my happiness and work-life balance.

Rings true to me. I'm pretty happy working from home. I try to imitate a well-defined work day: I change to work clothes in the morning and to home clothes after being done. I have a separate laptop for work and work only, not even private emails on that device. In the same vein no work chat or email on my phone, once that laptop closes I'm reachable again next morning.

> It's the separation of church and state, right? Obviously annecdata, but a pretty decent amount of people I know struggle with the blurry lines that working from home brings.

They should join the antidisestablishmentarialist cause! Mostly because I've never had the opportunity to use that word before.

I moved my desk to a different room, and the first 6-9 months of working from home were OK. Once winter came, the darkness at 17.00 (or sooner) plus the strongest level of lockdown we've had in Denmark[1] was pretty miserable.

[1] Non-essential shops, all restaurants etc closed, though no restrictions on private gatherings, going outside etc. (I realize most of the rest of Europe had stricter restrictions.)

My problem is I don't have a dedicated area at home for "work". And even if I did, I'm the one paying for it. My work desk is also my computer desk. So by the end of the day, maybe I want to play a PC game, but the last thing I want to do is spend more time at the desk.

While I also like the idea of choice for people on either side of the spectrum I feel being remote while part of your team/company is not puts you at a severe disadvantage. Both in the sense of being involved in new projects and ideas and visibility compared to peers.

I'm curious to see how this hybrid approach plays out in the future.

For some people it's just a mental change. I work from home and have done it for over a decade now. I'm reasonably productive and prefer it to being in the office every day.

I'm still going to a local coworking place once a week basically to have a change of environment - it makes a massive difference in a long run. I also really enjoy working from the car service waiting room when I get there every few months. I had one of the most productive days on a 6h flight. I don't expect this applies to everyone of course.

I work in a different room to my partner and we don't see each other apart from at lunch time. We do take a whole hour for lunch together every day and often have sex, but other than that we both have our own work to do. Do you not have separate rooms?

Im one of these people that prefers the office, all else equal. But it isn’t equal. With full time remote I can live somewhere that is close to my parents, my in laws, and which supports my wife’s career goals. That is worth so much to me. I think I’d accept at 2/3 - 3/4 pay cut to work remotely if really pressed. To me, that’s the killer feature of remote work. How many people have picked up their kids, left behind deep friendships, and moved to the Bay Area? Tons. A huge amount of human happiness is sacrificed to be in the office.

This is the part that's baffling for me. I see WFH as an opportunity to reclaim so much of our lives from our employers. That's why I cannot empathize with anyone desperately desiring to go back to an office. In my mind they are literally saying they thought life was better when their employer dictated where they were for at least 8 hours a day, dictated where they live, how much time they will spend commuting every day.

That's crazy to me. I cannot wrap my head around it at all.

> That's crazy to me. I cannot wrap my head around it at all.

Personally I agree, however ...

The main problem is with those who can barely afford modern house prices as it is, without having to add an extra room at their own expense so their employer can cut costs.

And whilst it's possible to use a kitchen table, a large number of households (especially younger ones) need two incomes to pay their mortgage and in many roles there's no way two people can both WFH in the same room.

It's fine for established workers or those with reasonable housing, but it prices a large part of the youth out of those jobs.

I like living in cities so it’s never been a problem to find an employer where I want to live. You can also choose a combination of employer and workplace that gives you the commute you want.

I’ve never had a problem with running an errand or even just taking off and going for a walk in the middle of the day while working in an office. I get that there are places where that’s a problem, but I don’t know, don’t work there I guess? You don’t have to just immediately acquiesce and accept whatever demands the first company who offers you a job wants.

I do think that it is reasonable for individuals to want to go back, for a lot of reasons. Coworking space is popular with some people for a reason. Some people really prefer working around others and working away from their home. Some homes are filled with distractions or even filled with abuse, making an office a respite from these problems. Most people (I suspect) don't have extra bedrooms lying around to convert into home offices and people who like living in the bay area due to social connections aren't going to be happy seeing their rent rise by $1500/month to get that extra bedroom they need for a comfortable home office.

If I had a 15m commute from where I currently live to an in person office - I'd go. But I can't do that while also supporting my wife's career.

open offices, long commutes, being required to be there for specific times.

And this is exactly what awaits most people after Covid. Programmers are lucky for having any options at all.

It makes no sense. Let people fucking WFH if they want to and set up a laptop for Zoom/Teams in meetings, as long as they come in for important stuff now and then.

Even most programmers don't have options when it comes to open offices.

The office == open office for most.

> If you could get rid of those most people probably wouldn't mind and might even prefer the office.

But that's what "the office" means. It means shitty unoptimal work conditions, it means hours a day stuck in traffic and it means visibility is as important as productivity. You can't get rid of those things, they are effectively part of the definition of working in an office as far as I'm concerned.

I love working from home. I'll never go back to any kind of morning commute to a noisy workspace full of managers breathing down my neck for as long as I can help it.

They’re not though. I work in an office now and my commute is a 15 minute walk. If I need to go do something during the day I do, nobody complains. These jobs exist, you can find them.

I'm glad you have a lifestyle and job that works for you.

I had the short commute, nice layout office for a while. Then the company up and moved us to an open office plan 40 minutes further away.

Anyways I'd have no hope owning anything close enough to walk a 15 minute commute to most jobs.

My biggest complaint about working in an office is having to make major life choices based on my employer's location. I have to live within commuting distance of the location that works best for their office. I would greatly prefer the freedom to make my own choice of where to live.

I do not mean to offend, but this is what schooling does to most humans - you commute to school, have clear distinction between home and school spaces, have clear distinction between school and neighborhood buddies (some overlap happens), various rituals...

I think you're right. I do like working from home, but working in the office wouldn't be anywhere near as bad with a private office. Open offices are a scourge. Unfortunately, where I work, the commute wouldn't go away, though. There's no way around it: if everyone goes to work every day there are too many people on the road.

You don't know what you're doing then. It's illogical to think going somewhere, using time doing so, makes you more productive, you lose productivity by traveling, ipso facto. Doesn't make sense.

Brains are highly associative. Different neurons fire depending on things like location and time of day. This has been studied in terms of learning. Students who are tested on a subject tend to test better if the test is in the same location as the learning. And also test better if the time of day is the same. (The flip side for this with learning is recall will be worse when it matters, so it’s even better to teach in a variety of locations and times.)

So, given the associativeness of neurons, it’s very common for people to have different levels of productivity in 2 different environments. If you play games on the same computer you do work on, then just sitting at said computer can be a distraction. Also just the act of moving to a distinct location can put the mental state into work mode.

You may not be as susceptible to some of these effects as others, so you might not notice as much, but they are very real, and can be difficult to work around.

Is it really hard to understand why some people are more productive working in physical proximity to the rest of the team? Why adding some commute friction is ok with them as it reduces communication friction later in the day?

The only things I like about working from home are the lack of commute, and the ability to do things at home during the day, like take a shower any time I want.

All the rest of it is better in the office, IMO. That said, it only applies if I actually have my own office, and not a shared workspace. (Which I did, pre-Covid, and I expect to have it again.)

Most of my co-workers did not have their own offices, so I expect they won't feel as kindly towards going back once we're all vaccinated.

In the end, for me it's kind of a wash. I get good things each way. But I'm pretty sure the business is going to want to go back to having an office because it simplifies so many things for them.

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