Hacker News Reader

Comment by adriancr | Hacker News Reader

It's difficult to even find non-internet-vendor-locked in sensors/controls/lights... (sensors/controls ideally running on batteries with sane local network API)

So far I've been lucky with cheap zigbee devices but these seem to be getting phased out in favor of locked in items...

and before people suggest - no, I don't have the willingness to build/maintain my own devices with raspberry pis or ESP etc

View on HN

Ikea sells Zigbee bulbs and control devices as well as a Zigbee bridge. Seeing how they joined the Zigbee alliance's boards of directors I don't think they're going away. In my experience they work fine and are reasonably priced.

They support HomeKit and while their own API technically isn't open, it's documented and has libraries to interact with it programmatically.

+1. I run entirely Zigbee devices in my home. They don't have internet access and talk to the Home Assistant[1] instance running on my home server.

The downside of Zigbee is that, as a user, there isn't a strong ecosystem of DIY IoT solutions like there is with, for example, the wifi-connected ESP8266/ESP32 chips. And, of course, it requires a hub and some degree of knowledge to set up.

At the moment I'm evaluating launching a small IoT startup/side-business in an underserved market. As much as I love Zigbee, these devices will probably end up being wifi. I'm not an expert in the hardware side of things, and the ability to pay <$1 for an ESP chip that does everything I need off the shelf is great, and I don't want to create a hub or require users to buy a (often $80+) hub just for my set of (<=$5) devices.

Although it'll be wifi-based, I plan to make these guarantees:

- The cloud service (supported by a small yearly subscription) will stay online for at least 1 year after the last device is sold.

- When the service is shut down, its software and hardware will be released under an open source license.

- The subscription fee will never be increased faster than inflation rate.

- 3rd party analytics software won't be used and data will never be shared with 3rd parties (outside from Stripe during checkout). In all cases a minimum amount of data will be collected.

Maybe this'll make my product slightly less likely to appear on the @internetofshit Twitter account[2].

1. https://www.home-assistant.io/

2. https://twitter.com/internetofshit

I think Zigbee is what IoT should be. It doesn't access the internet, it doesn't clutter the frequency band like my 30 WiFi IoT devices, it doesn't need to be in range (since other Zigbee devices can relay the messages)... I'm going to buy some Zigbee devices from IKEA just so I can play around with them.

It's a really nice standard, I hope it takes off.

ZigBee sits in the same frequency band as WiFi, so it does actually clutter it.

Edit: oh and it has already taken off as much as it will, the ZigBee alliance is working on a an ipv6 based standard.

> The downside of Zigbee is that, as a user, there isn't a strong ecosystem of DIY IoT solutions like there is with, for example, the wifi-connected ESP8266/ESP32 chips.

Luckily, as you probably know, you can connect all those different protocols together with homeassistant. So you can use pre-built solutions for some devices and DIY for others and still easily connect them.

I really don't know anything about the availability of Zigbee chips for DIY projects, but I would just like to say that I paid just 20 EUR for Ikea's gateway [0].

But if you do go Wi-Fi, why use a cloud service at all? Is there a specific reason not to go with mDNS/DNS-SD and handle everything on the local network?

[0] https://www.ikea.com/de/de/p/tradfri-gateway-weiss-40337806/

> They don't have internet access

Do you mean they don't as a matter of manufacturing, or that you have blocked them yourself? (I ask because I am also interested in getting some lights, but would also like them to be local-network-only.)

Zigbee devices don't have internet access because they're not on the network. Zigbee is a seperate wireless protocol. Lights and switches implement a pairing step which allows them to interact. If you would like to control such devices from your PC, you'll need a device with a Zigbee transceiver to talk to these devices.

Typically, manufacturers sell you a "bridge" or "gateway", which is a networked device including such a transceiver. You could isolate this single device from accessing the internet or you could just not rely on any closed option. You can buy a USB Zigbee transceiver for 30 EUR and use it with your PC or a Raspberry Pi.

Perfect, thank you for the explanation!

I hate that this dominates the conversation. I tried some stuff with a pi once. It was a nightmare. I fidgeted around with the installation, and after some slight hiccups, I finally get to install the package for my security system.

Errors. A screen full of errors barfed everywhere. I look at the repository for some basic debugging, and without some serious dedicated time, I can't fix the issue.

This is why people don't want to fiddle with a Pi for these things. Time is dedicated to get the system up, but you're not given any kind of guarantee that it will work out of the box.

I feel like anytime a hobbyist says a Pi is the solution to your IoT or cloud problem, it's because they enjoy fiddling with the errors and getting it work. When it does, I'm sure it's rewarding, but a lot of people have other hobbies that they'd rather spend time on.

It's like telling someone who complains about video game DLC to go skiing. Yes, you might enjoy skiing, but skiing isn't a drop in replacement for the person complaining.

I think it’s more telling them to learn to mod their favourite game instead: technically it does solve it, but it’s not even in the same universe when it comes to complexity and time investment

This is also the reason why some of us enjoy futzing with Raspberry Pis (And a Arduinos and ESPs et al.)

But yeah, I understand your pain, and recognise that it’s not a hobby everybody wants...

Lack of maintenance is a good reason to use a microcontroller. I can understand not wanting to deal with the complexity of a pi and the associated software updates, but if you just need to read a sensor or toggle a relay and send a few packets you can write arduino code that is effectively set and forget. Most importantly you can be certain its behavior wont unexpectedly change because of some remote update. It's easier now than it ever has been to get started, things have improved alot in just the last 5 years or so.

Yeah, the new microcontroller boards that have Arduino Uno MCU (ATmega328P) and cheap Wi-Fi (ESP8266) bundled on a single board and connected together via UART are really great. I recently got a couple of these from AliExpress for $12 including shipping (for experimenting with sensors), and I noticed that they are really well supported by the Arduino IDE and the open source community in general.

I'd encourage you to check out the ESP-32. It's not that much more money and supports more features (BLE, actual hardware encryption, etc.)

There is enough choice of MQTT-compatible devices, running Tasmota or other (for example Shelly devices). No vendor lock, open protocol, no single point of failure (well, usually people only setup one MQTT broker, but it is possible to publish-subscribe to several brokers at once).

How hard have you looked for the lights? Or are you specifically looking for the whole "customisable rgb lighting with ecosystem with apps etc."

FYI Phillips hue is not vendor locked, and does not require the internet. They're not cheap though.

Phillips hue does require the internet for setup.

You can join Phillips hue units to your own zigbee network without Internet or even the Phillips hue app.

Zigbee2mqtt and a cheap zigbee dongle is all you need really. You could add home assistant for a better interface but there is no need to involve Phillips or the Internet. One of the huge advantages of zigbee imo.

Thank you, that's cool to know. But if it applies to all zigbee devices, there is little point to choose phillips devices specifically, no?

With reviews being useless lately, many people have gone back to trusting brand names. Though the only reason I brought them up was to point out availability.

One other really cool thing is they have a wireless switch that is powered by the act of pushing the button.

I just bought a Laird BLE temp sensor (BT510) and have complete control over it. I can scan-response it with a Raspberry Pi and get the temperature and display it on a small LCD screen. The pi is also my home automation gateway and it sends this (and other data) to my cloud so I can read it from my personal website (which is password protected).

The BT510 It has crazy range and has only dropped 10mV battery in 14 days.

It CAN be done, because sensor makers have no interest in reporting home: costs are too high!

We need more open source projects to enable people to automate their homes with a list of suppliers who provide "dumb" edge node sensors.

Electronic lights seem like a small convenience for a high price, not to mention how they require even more use of smartphones and such.

Disagree, as a renter smart bulbs are by far the easiest way to get dimmable lights in my apartment. Being able to dim the lights in the evenings while I watch TV is amazing.

We simply switch to string lights and "bedtime bulb" in the evenings, no dimming or internet needed.

(Although, I did install a dimmer into the dining room wall switch, but it's worth it I think if you'll be there at least a year.)

I would totally be down for that, but I don't have access to the breaker box, and I don't feel like trying to install anything into anything that has hot wires.

That’s smart policy.

In the US (or at least the majority of jurisdictions who have adopted it), NEC Section 240.24(B) requires "each occupant shall have ready access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy unless otherwise permitted in 240.24(B)(1)" (where that is roughly buildings with continuous on-site maintenance supervision can avoid this requirement).

Is that legal?

what do you do if you have a flooding? just hope you dont get electrocuted?

You should really insist on access...

No internet needed for my setup either, local network only.

They don't need to be internet-connected though, there's many "smart" LED bulbs that run off a traditional remote control.

I don't want to add a remote control to my life, the "smart" bulbs are better because I can control them with my phone, watch, and any other devices I might get in the future.

Not to mention, I have ~10 of these bulbs. Can't imagine how a remote control would deal with that. They also aren't connected to the internet, they are controlled by a hub that only has local network access.

We have automation to turn off all lights in the apartment when nobody's home, which saves a lot of energy due to us forgetting to turn of lights quite often otherwise. Also adds nice things like turning on lights on movement in the bathroom and kitchen, where you don't need to have lights on all the time, turning on lights 45 minutes before sunset if somebody's home and turning on lights in the hallway when coming home if it's dark already.

I find all of this extremely convenient and ZigBee is a great platform to do things like this.

I don't know if I'm just that jaded, but it feels like it's more trouble that just using a light switch and getting in the habit of not leaving lights on.

Depends on how many lights you have, and how often you need to do it. I've installed extra wires from all light buttons so one master switch per room, not as flexible but same cost over 10 years. It saves me a ton grief every night turning off all the lamps in the apartment, some partners never learn that light switches can turn something off. The monetary savings are not enough to break even in 20 years, the time saved is priceless. ;-)

I get a lot of subjective value out of being able to adjust colour temperature, brightness, and hue.

For instance, the last hour or two of the day, I have lights in the bedroom and kitchen either dim red or off.

Being able to do the routine of "try to go to sleep, fail, tell my watch to turn the lights red, get a glass of water or a snack, turn lights off" is really nice. Even dim white light would be like splashing cold water on my face.

There are other ways to solve for this, approximately, I guess. This is simple and works, though.

I forgot one more thing I do: a redshift kind of system for the whole house. The lights dim and change their temperature from bright and blue during the day to dim and red in the evening, just like my computer and phone does.

Circadian lighting is the script and it follows the sun to make its decisions.

I think this is common across all technological phases: wild west implementations preceeds standardization.

I have a few friends running Shelly devices locally with HomeAssistant and other agents. They can also do the cloud thing (and are unfortunately named that), but the local-first functions work. I don't know more, but the hass forums are a good start.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com