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Comment by georgieporgie | Hacker News Reader

Good luck getting a clean shave under those conditions.

It sometimes amazes me what people think constitutes adversarial conditions, and testing oneself. Reaching down and turning a knob, then telling yourself that you're building character? Odd.

By the way, I loved the comments. They read like something I would have written as a twelve year old. "I'm like a Navy SEAL because I beat myself up every day with a cold shower! I'm tough!" My favorite is paleo guy:

But I also do it due to the paleo/primal lifestyle I’ve been adopting—the fact that we didn’t evolve bathing with the convenience of hot coals or temperature faucets and and that our bodies are probably designed to buck up and shower in less-than-ideal conditions.

Except that you'll find that frequency of bathing, and bathing as a social and relaxation mechanism, directly correlates with availability of hot water. Where there are hot springs, there are happy, relaxed locals.

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Good luck getting a clean shave under those conditions.

It works great when shaving with obsidian chips. I like yak butter as a shave lotion: let it ferment just a bit for a subtle scent and extra moisturizing.

Obsidian would actually be a pretty awesome razor material, come to think of it. From Wikipedia:

>Because of this lack of crystal structure, obsidian blade edges can reach almost molecular thinness, leading to its ancient use as projectile points and blades, and its modern use as surgical scalpel blades

You wouldn't want to use volcanic chips, of course, but now I want to pitch this to pg. I mean, used in scalpels? Shiiiit.

>our bodies are probably designed to buck up and shower in less-than-ideal conditions.

By this argument, our bodies are designed to die of smallpox.

Not even close. Smallpox is "designed" (over an optimization gradient) to attack our bodies. Although it would have been much more effective to not kill its host.

Showering is a practice that has likely had minimal selective pressure on our genes due to the relatively short history of the practice.

Yes, of course there are exceptions to every generality. Man also isn't conditioned to sit at a desk for 8 hours a day or eat highly processed foods on a consistent basis. This doesn't disprove his point that exposing yourself to a little bit of the natural environment is probably a good thing.

What? That completely disproves his point that "exposing yourself to nature is probably a good thing." You can't cherry-pick which types of nature you should expose yourself to -- you have to supply some other criteria.

Your analogy doesn't work because the author was not advocating experiencing death, just experiencing short-term discomfort that is supposedly better in the long run because humans could/should experience it. To use your words the author was indeed advocating "cherry-picking." Compare dying of smallpox to freezing to death in the Arctic Ocean. Compare taking cold showers to building up disease resistance by living in non-sterile environments.

"Reaching down and turning a knob, then telling yourself that you're building character? Odd."

Seems like something Calvin's dad would suggest.

e.g. http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkypfyWBiK1qczkzxo1_250.jp...

That's the same advice that we hear a lot on HN though. "Get out of your comfort zone." How is this any different? By 'turning a knob' he is getting blasted with cold water, which is outside of his comfort zone. By doing it consistently, he is attempting to get used to living outside of his comfort zone.

Just because he's talking about a cold shower instead of a start-up and a bunch of comments on his blog are by "I'm a macho man" types doesn't somehow make this different.

update: Maybe the idea that 'turning a knob' is somehow a low barrier is the issue here? I would say that the real barrier is sticking with it and not bailing out of the cold water (jumping out of the shower, quickly turning the water off, etc).

Hmm, "Get out of your comfort zone."

That might be the case for a few days. However, after a few weeks taking cold showers becomes a habit and part of someones new comfort zone. I guess randomly replacing one shower a week with a cold shower might take longer to get used to, but it's still meaningless IMO.

PS: As someone that used to regularly swim in water colder than most peoples tap water I can say it's not really that big a deal until your core temperature drops and a normal shower is not going to do that.

> Where there are hot springs, there are happy, relaxed locals.

Some people feel they work better and are more motivated when they're not in a state of happy relaxation. Comfortable and focused perhaps.

> "Reaching down and turning a knob, then telling yourself that you're building character? Odd."

The detail that is important is not the knob, but the endurance of a blast of cold water. (Note: the following is a ridiculous stretch) Saying the issue is 'turning a knob' reminds me of pundits and Senators saying that waterboarding is "pouring water over someone's nose". Standing under coldish water on purpose is a spartan message to your subconscious.

Some people feel they work better and are more motivated when they're not in a state of happy relaxation. Comfortable and focused perhaps.

I don't work in the shower.

The detail that is important is not the knob, but the endurance of a blast of cold water.

I believe that you have missed my point. Turning a knob, over which you have complete control, really isn't subjecting yourself to anything meaningful. You're not pushing your limits. You're doing silly things and calling it personal progress.

Go climb a mountain. Or even a challenging rock. Commit to a period of time living in a developing nation, or any place drastically different from your home. Join the Navy SEALs. Do not, however, turn the shower tap to 'cold' and then blog about how you're growing as a person as a result of it.

  >> Some people feel they work better and are more motivated when they're
  >> not in a state of happy relaxation. Comfortable and focused perhaps.
  > 
  > I don't work in the shower.

No offense, but that response just makes you come off like a dick. Do you really think that he's implying that you work in the shower?

  > Turning a knob, over which you have complete control, really isn't
  > subjecting yourself to anything meaningful.

  > Go climb a mountain. Or even a challenging rock.

Don't you have control over those too? You can turn back at any point.

No offense, but that response just makes you come off like a dick. Do you really think that he's implying that you work in the shower?

The opposite interpretation is that one is perpetually showering/tubbing in order to be in a state of relaxation. That is equally absurd.

You can turn back at any point.

That depends entirely on the situation. There are plenty of ways to climb, backpack, etc. where one has no choice but to continue. Less ridiculous climbing may involve social pressure to stay committed. Furthermore, all of these activities involve, as has been said elsewhere, real personal gain: strength, health, mental well-being, and real life experiences. Getting yourself chilly for five minutes in the morning is just playing around.

You sound like someone that is afraid of cold water - if it seems so easy an puerile to you; why don't you try it.

Holy shit that's the worst reasoning I've seen here in a while. How about no, because, as the OP said, it does nothing meaningful, likewise with "proving I'm not afraid of cold water to a random dude on HN".

Can you think of a true story of someone saving a person from icy water (something meaningful) and saying as the defining point "Yeah, I totally bitch-slapped that cold water since I'M A MAN."? Hollywood likes to use it as a cheap 'challenge to overcome' (again though with the meaningful goal of advancing the plot), but that's not how it works in real life.

Edit: you argued elsewhere that it could be a 'tree in a forest'. Maybe in general. But not in this specific case. Cold water for a few minutes in the morning is not even a sprout.

Interesting analysis grasshopper. I have noticed though that you and many others assailing this idea offer no path or insight of your own to develop character. Just meaningless statements such as, "but that's not how it works in real life." SO wise one, please tell us how it works in "REAL LIFE".

I work in the shower. Great place for thinking.

So can you explain to us how one builds character then - how else is it (character or self-discipline) built but by resisting against a natural pull, thought, or reaction?

The Spartans to General Patton used similar techniques in building the character of their troops and their fruits cannot be disputed.

The author is not claiming that this only will build character, but this is a small tool to to work on building character yet another way. Alone perhaps it would be meaningless, but taken together with his other approaches it can lead to significant results. It may be only a tree in the forest and it takes trees to build a forest; this method can be one of those trees.

Or if you like, to return to the analogy of resisting something in order to become stronger: This is just another exercise, like the plank (among many), that used alone may not produce much; but taken together with a whole exercise program WILL make ones whole body stronger.

I wasn't suggesting that taking a cold shower makes you like a Navy SEAL. I was suggesting that if you were training to become one, taking cold showers would help you prepare for the shock of BUD/S training.

But I guess you couldn't be bothered to read my post properly. For someone who has such strong opinions, you sure do lack reading comprehension skills. Removing context in order to make your argument more valid....real classy.

I was suggesting that if you were training to become one, taking cold showers would help you prepare for the shock of BUD/S training.

I sincerely doubt it. The point of BUD/S is that it pushes recruits way, way, way past anyone would push themselves. Constantly getting wet-and-sandy is only one aspect of it, and one 10 minute shower a day is not preparation for being wet and cold for, literally, a week.

The story is that Alcatraz had very warm showers for the inmates to prevent them preparing for the long cold swim to freedom.

Sounds like a benefit for the other 99.999% of inmates. Win/Win?

Removing context in order to make your argument more valid....real classy.

Actually, no, I was paraphrasing what my imaginary twelve-year-old self would say, based loosely upon what you claim to have said.

Regardless, what you claim to have said is, frankly, stupid. Cold showers will not prepare one for Navy SEAL training. A statement like that is precisely as dumb as what twelve-year-old me would have said.

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