Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

Eh, as someone with a degree in philosophy, it’s this sort of overanalysis that has led to the field’s sidelining. The so-called folk wisdom stated by the dying might not be logically rigorous, but it’s a perspective that we would do well to remember. Being trite or simple doesn’t make something wrong.

My own personal theory is that the deathbed perspective is quite similar to the childhood one: without the constraints of life placed upon us by social pressures and resource acquisition, we have an easier time realizing what is actually important.

Got to deathbed (series of strokes) etc. Then had the poor grace to get better, sort of.

Made sure to say what I wanted to kids, (best I could). Reached out to ones that I wanted to.

The experience definitely changes perspective. Spending time with loved ones is far more important. Work is far less, except when I need a break from loved ones.

I really stopped giving any sort of sh*t what anyone thought. So I’m much less afraid to call it like I see it.

The big empirical evidence that those deathbed platitudes are right: The Harvard Adult Development Study. The results are clear: achievements (even for people who achieve incredible, world changing things that most of us could never hope to come close to) aren't strongly correlated with happiness at any age. Good interpersonal relationships, in contrast, are the most powerful happiness determining factor.

For a:

- "I should have done X" (regret because X wasn't followed)

there are probably as many:

- "I should not have done X" (regret because X was followed and made things shit)

Even the "should not have worked as hard" would be most likely balanced with others saying: "should not have been as slack or loose at work, and did something important, made some legacy"

In the end, nothing really matters, and the perspective at the deathbed might have hindsight in its favor, but it's equally blind to the consequences of alternatives that weren't followed.

This article makes me think about Kahneman's research into our two selves: remembered and experienced. Quick quote from relevant paper: "consider a music lover who listens raptly to a long symphony on a disk that is scratched near the end, producing a shocking sound. Such incidents are often described by the statement that the bad ending 'ruined the whole experience'. But, in fact, the experience was not ruined, only the memory of it."[1]

[1] https://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_expe...

As someone that has had one or two "deathbed" experiences, I can say two things struck me about them

1) I felt complete peace about dying. In fact, I had to reason myself towards wanting to live

2) I felt a level of clarity about what was important to me that I have never felt before (or since). I struggle to incorporate that into my life on an ongoing basis.

I think these experiences were a terrible gift. I would wish everyone experienced the clarity I had but I could not wish you had to go where I did to get it.

The most poignant last words I heard from someone about to die, and did 2 hours later: "I don't want to die." Gives one a lot to think about.

Is it considered valuable? I heard that people on deathbed typically say they should have gone for more friendship and less money/power, but I don't see that many people valuing that perspective. :-)

Interesting article. Unlike many others here, I was convinced:

* When I think "I should have worked less" I imagine myself as having worked less and achieved the same. I fail to model the counterfactual reality accurately. I'm imagining a world where my bank balance is the same but I had 20% more time. That means for me, the "I wish I hadn't worked as hard" would be a poor statement. I would fail to have my standard of living. It's possible others are just as bad at the modeling and seeing what I've seen of others, I'm a slightly above average modeler in general.

* I am comfortable with most of my correspondence being public after I die (and for that which reveals details about other participants, when they die as well). But I know that many HN commenters hate this. They have articulated this strongly in the past so I know that control of how you are perceived post-death is important to many others. Unable to categorize who goes into perception management and who goes into Diogenes, I should reasonably not infer that people will tell the truth since they could just be perception managing.

Overall, interesting article. Made me think about a thing I did not even realize I assumed without basis: that deathbed perspectives are valuable because of lack of incentives.

I suppose there is the added truth that people on their deathbed are rarely as mentally able as those for whom death is far.

Yes, I think downgrading my view of the deathbed perspective is correct.

I've written about this: https://www.hjorthjort.xyz/2018/02/21/the-deathbed-fallacy.h...

My main issue with the deathbed advice is exactly what he calls "hindsight bias". The deathbed advice is more of a wish-list -- it's not like they were thinking at the time "I should work harder" or "I don't live as my true self, and that's fine". I try to not work too hard, but I also try to make a good and meaningful career for myself. Do I just work less hard? I try to live as my authentic self, but looking back 5 years I see I was probably not doing, in a bunch of ways that seem obvious now but weren't at the time. I wish I had stayed in touch with some of my friends, but quite a few of them I'm happy I cut ties with.

I take no big offence with the advice in general. I think most people recognize that list as things that are sensible and lead to a higher-quality life. If these advice came from a generic life-coach, we'd shrug and say "good points, seems about right, easier said than done". But somehow, because they are "deathbed regrets" they get a veneer of sage-likeness.

Then again, here we are arguing about articles on Hacker News, so what the hell do we know about happiness?

As usual, immortality is the solution.

I think it's important to remember that many of these "death bed" bits of wisdom are often the same or extremely similar to those found in deep psychedelic and religious experiences, meditation, so on.

As someone pointed out these are often also similar to the more "child like" thoughts that are not constrained by society and do very much so seem to be more of the things that actually do matter.

I’m not sure this guy even read the book or blog. The conversations weren’t simply “Bonnie come here...i wish I was more true to myself...”. They told stories of their regrets. As they were preparing to meet their end, I imagine one way to give themselves closure was to get things off their chest, or to help others avoid similar mistakes.

> the dying value exactly the things that our culture tells us all to value: the themes that fill our advertising and magazines

This is a strong, frustratingly unsubstantiated claim. Do we see deathbed wishes vary across cultures in variance with advertised values? Did deathbed wishes “sync up” when mass advertising took hold?

This article https://medium.com/@rikardhjort/the-deathbed-fallacy-5e54d96... dives into the same topic and makes, IMO, slightly better points.

There's an exercise used in personal growth experiences. They ask "What would you say if you knew you were going to die tomorrow? Who would you say it to?" Then when everyone has thought about it and revealed their choice, they ask "What are you waiting for?"

Of course, it may be hard to figure this out, if tomorrow isn't really your last day. Its easy to fudge and wriggle and decide you don't really have something to say, or don't want to reveal what it might be. It can also be easier to face when asked by a group you are close to, because you don't want to lie to them (even if you would lie to yourself). So it doesn't often yield catharsis. But sometimes it does.

We need not only look to the dead to uncover our deepest values. We can look to mystics, and other masters of the world's religions who spent their entire lives inquiring directly into these questions, armed with their own masters' guidance and millennia of roadmaps painstakingly drawn out by countless others who attempted this before them.

Here in America we often think of Religion as dogma, or as a philosophy, when in reality there are many through-lines that are more adequately characterized as a process of intense questioning and exploration carried on continuously since the beginning of civilization.

After so much effort, the conclusions are quite stable, and you will find them most accessibly in the Indian, Tibetan, and Chinese canons.

How was the question phrased? "Do you have any regrets?" and they listed these five?

Was there a second question: "What was the greatest sense of accomplishment?"

Without a counter question of some sort, this seems.... unbalanced by construction.

They're also massively contingent on who they're speaking to:

- Would someone declare their most heartfelt thoughts to a random nurse? - Would someone who isn't really a people person bother expressing their wisdom to another person?

Those interested in the subject might find the movie Martyrs interesting. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1029234/

I've been reading some pop-psy books recently (Stumbling on Happiness and Thinking, Fast and Slow) and a recurring theme is that we remember many things in a different way than we experience them in the moment. This can cause weird biases, e.g. where we choose to repeat experiences that are more painful than other options, because we remember pain inaccurately. But one point the books both make is that this is not necessarily irrational per se - we often remember things much more times than we experience them, so optimizing for the memory of them can make sense.

This is one of the flaws with Bezos regret minimization framework. Optimizing for a point in time perspective seems like the wrong function for most people.

Life is risk. You make a choice. When I was sick and alone and had some risk of dying due to my circumstances I felt lonely, but that moment does not define my global preferences.

It does not mean that I need / should construct my life that when I’m at risk for death I should have people around me. The question is, what will that cost the rest my life in terms of quality of life.

This is painful obvious if you think about it and yet...here we are.

I don't need to die to know that the commonly advocated clichés do in fact matter. But you know I need money to make that happen.

Makes me think of Quora where people often say:

"Before you ask why ask if."

https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-Before-you-ask-why-ask...

It shouldn't be overlooked that we tend to romanticize the dying process, probably for our own mental health.

Your last words likely won't be wise, witty, or even coherent.

A good account from a medical professional on what the end stage of life actually looks like can be found here:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay...

I was particularly struck by the following comment from one of the readers:

""" My grandmother has dementia to the point that she yells and moans the same thing non stop 24 hours a day, including the phrase, “please help me”. This is continuous except for 15 minute patches of sleep here and there as she no longer really sleeps just dozes. She weighs 90 lbs if that and is eggshell fragile screaming when touched due to degenerative muscle tears compounded by arthritis. Her bowels no longer work and she fluctuates between constipation, where the assistants administer a suppository, or she has explosive diarrhea that must be cleaned up which requires moving her excessively and thus more screaming and claims of pain. She is on peritoneal dialysis and has congestive heart failure with a pace maker, prior to loosing all capacities a few months back she was swallowing nitroglycerin like candy and up until she stopped walking entirely my mom was dragging her to doctors and what not. Even then moving was difficult and required wheelchairs and walkers. Her dialysis port is always sore and semi infected despite meticulous hygiene.

She has a raging UTI on a twice monthly basis though she is bathed by attendants and her diaper and garments changed regularly. She is on oxygen though she does not even move about to use oxygen as she can no longer stand nor even muster the strength to hold a sippy cup. She has forgotten how to eat or even swallow and still she is forced to choke down at least 15 pills per day and takes the occasional bite if food which she may stop chewing and allow to fall from her mouth. Her mouth is so dry the pills do not even dissolve when they lodge so she has to be coaxed and coaxed endlessly and given water in a dropper. She has round the clock private care to the tune of a few thousand per month. I had rather this money go to medical research or a non profit hospital. This team also includes a physical therapist which is useless. She is always freezing and has to be by a fireplace or heater or covered in layers of heated blankets so comfort is hard to achieve.

She is moved around like a doll with much ado and her screaming in pain which my mom would claim was from her dementia and not so much pain. Finally after months of this torture on her poor failing little body my mother is now considering hospice care mainly due to the cocktail of pain killers and anti anxiety pills no longer soothe her at all-I really have no clue why it has not stopped her heart. It has been surreal to witness this and I feel so bad for people who do not have the resources or loved ones for even this much relief if relief is what you call it. However I think my grandmother would have never considered euthanasia or absence of life saving measures if given a choice while she was cogent because she had an unhealthy fear of death even then.

The way we view death is really twisted and I fault religious nonsense with a lot of that phobia. Modern medicine, while mostly positive, can be grotesque because it can extend life past a semblance of life. I personally have had a living will made since this despite being young and can only hope we make strides in having physician assisted suicide legalized so people have options. """