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Comment by jasonkester | Hacker News Reader

If you’re an American developer looking to move abroad, a much better plan would be to first pick up a remote gig with an American company, and then move overseas. Your take home pay will be easily triple what you can negotiate from a European company.

This site takes the opposite approach of finding positions at EU shops that will handle relocation and visas. That certainly helps get you situated, but they’ll likely expect a long term commitment. And long term, you’ll leave a ton of money on the table.

I expect that’s why the jobs listed on this site don’t reveal salaries. It would kinda take the wind out of the idea if they had to tell you that none of these jobs pay more than $50k.

Ps. Still go through! It’s really nice over here. Just make sure you get the best deal for yourself.

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Please do a thorough analysis before moving abroad.

Many European countries have free healthcare, childcare and education on the other hand 1500$ might not cover the rent if you want something in the middle of the city of the expensive countries!

Taxes are widely different too.

Some of my friends lived in US when they where fresh graduates and moved back when they started having families because it was too expensive to get a relatively good education for their children among other things. I doubt all HackerNews kids will end up in MIT so compare the schools of where they are likely to end up. Check happiness levels too just for good measure.

I say this as an European that will move out of Europe to a country that fits me and my family more and that has made us happier (SF and NY at least is not for us, would like to see LA and Texas some day).

The devil, as always, is in the details, and everyone is different.

> Many European countries have free healthcare,

I wish this socialist trope would die. I have never heard of a US programming job that didn't include staff healthcare, plus some dental and eyewear.

Some US companies also include family healthcare, for some there's a fee.

How is this socialist trope?

A lot of planning involves “what happens if I lose my job”, or “my current workplace is hell, and between that and taking care of kids I can barely even start looking for another job, and I can’t afford to take a couple of months off because that would mean I need to go on the private insurance market for a few months which would be ridiculously expensive with my special needs kid”.

Even if you’re in an ideal scenario, with a cushy job that provides great employer insurance, it’s not close to being as good as having high quality healthcare irrespective of whether you have a good job, terrible job, or no job.

But wouldn't one avoid the private insurance market for those months by using COBRA?

COBRA is equally or even more expensive than private insurance at times. COBRA just guarantees that you get to keep the same insurance/coverage that you had with your employer but now you pay all costs out of pocket including employer portion which usually is a lot. To add to this, some employers charge an admin fee of 1-2% because they are managing this for you even after employment. So in total, you could pay upto 102% of the total cost of premiums.

102% of the premiums for 100% of the benefits for 0 time negotiating with the private market and with guaranteed coverage seems... fair?

” New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage”

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-fin...

$1500 barely covers rent in most US cities too. Meanwhile, median rent in Vienna is about €900, which I’m not sure can be replicated anywhere here (maybe Pittsburgh?)

I don't know all the visa rules, of course. But if you're looking to relocate, you usually needs a visa, or some sort of citizenship. Sponsoring yourself isn't always an option, or might be fairly expensive.

The easiest way to relocate is usually to find a company that can sponsor your visa application, so that you're legally staying in the country, and can enjoy all the public services.

Yeah, the visa thing is the real crux. Fortunately with a US bill rate, you’ll have an extra $150k/yr to figure out a way around it.

Health insurance a lees of a concern, in practice. Catastrophic coverage is pretty cheap from places like IMG Global, and doctors here are happy to take payment directly for more routine things if you’re not on the national plan. And that payment is forty dollars because there’s are no insurance companies to gouge, so gouging isn’t something doctors do.

Personally, I got around the “permission to live” thing by mildly abusing schengen tourist visas for a while, then marrying an English girl. If I had to do it again, I’d go for one of the “show us you have a ton of money in the bank” visa routes. Again, that US bill rate comes in handy...

And of course, for the rich there are “investment” visas for real estate purchase.

As well as “live here for a year” visas like Costa Rica has.

Panama provides a "Friendly Nations" residency for just $5,000. And you're not taxed on foreign sourced income. You also don't have to live in Panama.

The whole visa hopping thing works, but it’s also fairly uncertain. I know quite a few people who did that in Asia, and have heard multiple stories about immigration catching on and them being refused entry.

I personally migrated by finding a company that would sponsor me, usually switching companies after that is pretty effortless.

Germany has a self-employed visa with little red tape. Much better than the point-based bs of UK.

Don't be self employed abroad as a US citizen.

Why not? If an American moves to Europe, in most countries your gig back in the states will be treated as a self employment,at least from taxman's perspective. Even within European Union the legislation around intercounty employment is such a grey area that the easiest,and often the only way, is to be self employed.

The US tax code will follow you until you renounce citizenship.

As regards to France (not sure how this varies from country to country, even the EU) it's fairly easy to get a visa (as in conditions), but the issue is that you'll have to renew it every year which is a fairly tedious process and has to be done in-person.

A few years back I used to have an American friend who got here on a student visa and later changed to a regular one when she started working. Granted, she wasn't in tech or anything like it, but she always had a steady long term work contract. They never wanted to give her a long-term visa for some reason. It's one of the reasons she went back to the US.

yeah... and even then the higher taxes can be brutal. 52% marginal rate in Ireland, (and the top income tax rate kicks in around 32k eur...)

It's also really hard to go back after five to ten years where you've made 500k+ less than your peers.

Lovely place though!

"It would kinda take the wind out of the idea if they had to tell you that none of these jobs pay more than $50k." That's around 41k€. What country are you from? These numbers are certainly way off for Frankfurt and other bigger German cities. We pay around 45k€ for a junior (!) developer and we're a pre-market startup and I know for a fact that this is a bit lower than the market standard.

Why is no one mentioning buying power as proper means to compare salaries? Also the health care stuff, rent, owning a car, retirement plans, all these things are widely different in cost and what you actually need. No one needs a car if you live in a city like Frankfurt for example. This all depends heavily on the country and region.

If you haven't thought of these things yet, you might think a bit about moving to a different country, because otherwise you'll be disappointed.

European here, i have yet to see a tech job with only 50k salary. Maybe after European and US taxes are deducted, but here in switzerland you can easily earn more than in the us, especially if you consider the cost of living compared to ex. silicon valley or new york

While Switzerland is technically "Europe", people should bear in mind that it's in no way representative of the other countries. Salaries are much higher over there, even when compared to other "rich" countries (France, Germany, etc) Cost of living too from what I understand.

In Paris, for example, 50k is a pretty common salary for a not too senior developer. Outside of Paris, you may need some experience to be able to get that.

Source: A few friends working at tech companies with branches in France, UK and Switzerland (among others).

Agreed however we are shengen and europe too. In paris those 50k wont allow you to live in a nice central apartment. If youd only made 100k in switzerland you can find that.

Its anectotal however for me and my partner we basically earn 3 and 2 times as much while cost of living is more or less only 30-50% higher than in Austria. Saying its expensive and therefore you earn more is to simple :)

> Agreed however we are shengen and europe too.

Right, but my point is that Switzerland is an "anomaly" in Europe (in more than just income), so people shouldn't base their image of Europe on the situation in Switzerland. Just as we Europeans shouldn't judge the US situation on SF and maybe NY.

However, they should know that it exists, so maybe focus on moving to Switzerland in particular instead of "Europe" in general if that's what they're looking for.

> In paris those 50k wont allow you to live in a nice central apartment.

Exactly, and that's the whole problem to me. Most young engineers will usually rent a very small appartment in the beginning, get a roommate or live somewhere far out in the suburbs.

Interestingly enough,just a few years ago €50k was an absurd salary in a lot of Eastern/Central European countries, however fast forward to 2021 and it's not that uncommon for those with experience. The quality of life would be absolutely incomparable having such salary in let's say Talin va Paris.

From my experience, Switzerland is definitely better compared to countries like, let's say, Germany, in almost every area of life - standard of living, salaries, closeness to the nature, taxes, healthcare - you name it.

Average salaries for devs : - Germany: 50k EUR / year; - Switzerland: 95k CHF / year. Of course, it depends on the specific canton/city/town when you want to settle down, but you need to take to account taxes as well. In Germany, they will tax you pretty heavily, around 50%, and Swiss taxation is ~30%, more or less.

Of course those are rough estimations, but you get the point.

In terms of costs of living, it is expensive, especially if you want to live in Zurich, but for a dev earning ~100k it won't be that much of an issue. Of course, you can choose a smaller town and cut down all expenses in half :slight_smile:

Sources: SwissDevJobs.ch, GermanTechJobs.de, Payscale.com, Numbeo.com

Agree on that - spent a few years in Switzerland and consider it the best place for devs in Europe.

Beautiful lakes and mountains are another nice perk there.

There is a bias for EU citizens now that Switzerland has entered the Schengen. And if you are American, opening up a bank account to have your salary deposited in is problematic (or was a few years ago).

You can't compare plain salaries without looking at the buying power though. Switzerland is expensive as fuck.

Switzerland has the highest salaries in whole Europe. It's easy to dismiss 50k as peanuts living there, but look around - Italy, Spain, Czech Republic, salaries there are not that high and 50k might be a standard for someone with ~5y of experience

Switzerland is a country of its own class and in most cases shouldn't and can't be compared to the rest of Europe. Yes,the salaries are higher, much higher, compared to other countries in Europe,but it's not that high either. Switzerland is very expensive. Also, because it's a high cost country,a lot of of the tech jobs seem to be on the high end of the spectrum, which means some JS+ HTML knowledge wouldn't result in employment, which may be the case in some places in the US.

"I expect that’s why the jobs listed on this site don’t reveal salaries."

Showing salaries is not a common practice in European countries in general.

Becoming increasingly common though.

Not really true. They often list a base salary. However the actual pay often depends on your education and selling skills. I.e. i never only got what was listed.

The visa is what allows us entry into a country though. How does one "move overseas" without a visa/work permit?

Fun fact: you can buy a house in France while visiting as a tourist. For the first few years I lived here, I’d split my time between France and England because each one allows you to stay up to 90 days out of any 180 day period.

Yeah I mean If you have money nowadays the world is your oyster, if you're poor... you're **ed

How can there still be these huge gaps in salary between Europe and the US ? You would expect US Tech giants to come in and swoop all the top local talent, thus raising overall demand.

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