Show HN: Relocate.me – get your next tech job abroad | Hacker News Reader

Show HN: Relocate.me – get your next tech job abroad

relocate.me

If you’re an American developer looking to move abroad, a much better plan would be to first pick up a remote gig with an American company, and then move overseas. Your take home pay will be easily triple what you can negotiate from a European company.

This site takes the opposite approach of finding positions at EU shops that will handle relocation and visas. That certainly helps get you situated, but they’ll likely expect a long term commitment. And long term, you’ll leave a ton of money on the table.

I expect that’s why the jobs listed on this site don’t reveal salaries. It would kinda take the wind out of the idea if they had to tell you that none of these jobs pay more than $50k.

Ps. Still go through! It’s really nice over here. Just make sure you get the best deal for yourself.

I don't know all the visa rules, of course. But if you're looking to relocate, you usually needs a visa, or some sort of citizenship. Sponsoring yourself isn't always an option, or might be fairly expensive.

The easiest way to relocate is usually to find a company that can sponsor your visa application, so that you're legally staying in the country, and can enjoy all the public services.

Yeah, the visa thing is the real crux. Fortunately with a US bill rate, you’ll have an extra $150k/yr to figure out a way around it.

Health insurance a lees of a concern, in practice. Catastrophic coverage is pretty cheap from places like IMG Global, and doctors here are happy to take payment directly for more routine things if you’re not on the national plan. And that payment is forty dollars because there’s are no insurance companies to gouge, so gouging isn’t something doctors do.

Personally, I got around the “permission to live” thing by mildly abusing schengen tourist visas for a while, then marrying an English girl. If I had to do it again, I’d go for one of the “show us you have a ton of money in the bank” visa routes. Again, that US bill rate comes in handy...

And of course, for the rich there are “investment” visas for real estate purchase.

As well as “live here for a year” visas like Costa Rica has.

Panama provides a "Friendly Nations" residency for just $5,000. And you're not taxed on foreign sourced income. You also don't have to live in Panama.

The whole visa hopping thing works, but it’s also fairly uncertain. I know quite a few people who did that in Asia, and have heard multiple stories about immigration catching on and them being refused entry.

I personally migrated by finding a company that would sponsor me, usually switching companies after that is pretty effortless.

Germany has a self-employed visa with little red tape. Much better than the point-based bs of UK.

Don't be self employed abroad as a US citizen.

Why not? If an American moves to Europe, in most countries your gig back in the states will be treated as a self employment,at least from taxman's perspective. Even within European Union the legislation around intercounty employment is such a grey area that the easiest,and often the only way, is to be self employed.

The US tax code will follow you until you renounce citizenship.

As regards to France (not sure how this varies from country to country, even the EU) it's fairly easy to get a visa (as in conditions), but the issue is that you'll have to renew it every year which is a fairly tedious process and has to be done in-person.

A few years back I used to have an American friend who got here on a student visa and later changed to a regular one when she started working. Granted, she wasn't in tech or anything like it, but she always had a steady long term work contract. They never wanted to give her a long-term visa for some reason. It's one of the reasons she went back to the US.

The visa is what allows us entry into a country though. How does one "move overseas" without a visa/work permit?

Fun fact: you can buy a house in France while visiting as a tourist. For the first few years I lived here, I’d split my time between France and England because each one allows you to stay up to 90 days out of any 180 day period.

Yeah I mean If you have money nowadays the world is your oyster, if you're poor... you're **ed

"I expect that’s why the jobs listed on this site don’t reveal salaries."

Showing salaries is not a common practice in European countries in general.

Becoming increasingly common though.

Not really true. They often list a base salary. However the actual pay often depends on your education and selling skills. I.e. i never only got what was listed.

Please do a thorough analysis before moving abroad.

Many European countries have free healthcare, childcare and education on the other hand 1500$ might not cover the rent if you want something in the middle of the city of the expensive countries!

Taxes are widely different too.

Some of my friends lived in US when they where fresh graduates and moved back when they started having families because it was too expensive to get a relatively good education for their children among other things. I doubt all HackerNews kids will end up in MIT so compare the schools of where they are likely to end up. Check happiness levels too just for good measure.

I say this as an European that will move out of Europe to a country that fits me and my family more and that has made us happier (SF and NY at least is not for us, would like to see LA and Texas some day).

The devil, as always, is in the details, and everyone is different.

> Many European countries have free healthcare,

I wish this socialist trope would die. I have never heard of a US programming job that didn't include staff healthcare, plus some dental and eyewear.

Some US companies also include family healthcare, for some there's a fee.

How is this socialist trope?

A lot of planning involves “what happens if I lose my job”, or “my current workplace is hell, and between that and taking care of kids I can barely even start looking for another job, and I can’t afford to take a couple of months off because that would mean I need to go on the private insurance market for a few months which would be ridiculously expensive with my special needs kid”.

Even if you’re in an ideal scenario, with a cushy job that provides great employer insurance, it’s not close to being as good as having high quality healthcare irrespective of whether you have a good job, terrible job, or no job.

But wouldn't one avoid the private insurance market for those months by using COBRA?

COBRA is equally or even more expensive than private insurance at times. COBRA just guarantees that you get to keep the same insurance/coverage that you had with your employer but now you pay all costs out of pocket including employer portion which usually is a lot. To add to this, some employers charge an admin fee of 1-2% because they are managing this for you even after employment. So in total, you could pay upto 102% of the total cost of premiums.

102% of the premiums for 100% of the benefits for 0 time negotiating with the private market and with guaranteed coverage seems... fair?

” New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage”

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-fin...

$1500 barely covers rent in most US cities too. Meanwhile, median rent in Vienna is about €900, which I’m not sure can be replicated anywhere here (maybe Pittsburgh?)

yeah... and even then the higher taxes can be brutal. 52% marginal rate in Ireland, (and the top income tax rate kicks in around 32k eur...)

It's also really hard to go back after five to ten years where you've made 500k+ less than your peers.

Lovely place though!

European here, i have yet to see a tech job with only 50k salary. Maybe after European and US taxes are deducted, but here in switzerland you can easily earn more than in the us, especially if you consider the cost of living compared to ex. silicon valley or new york

While Switzerland is technically "Europe", people should bear in mind that it's in no way representative of the other countries. Salaries are much higher over there, even when compared to other "rich" countries (France, Germany, etc) Cost of living too from what I understand.

In Paris, for example, 50k is a pretty common salary for a not too senior developer. Outside of Paris, you may need some experience to be able to get that.

Source: A few friends working at tech companies with branches in France, UK and Switzerland (among others).

Agreed however we are shengen and europe too. In paris those 50k wont allow you to live in a nice central apartment. If youd only made 100k in switzerland you can find that.

Its anectotal however for me and my partner we basically earn 3 and 2 times as much while cost of living is more or less only 30-50% higher than in Austria. Saying its expensive and therefore you earn more is to simple :)

> Agreed however we are shengen and europe too.

Right, but my point is that Switzerland is an "anomaly" in Europe (in more than just income), so people shouldn't base their image of Europe on the situation in Switzerland. Just as we Europeans shouldn't judge the US situation on SF and maybe NY.

However, they should know that it exists, so maybe focus on moving to Switzerland in particular instead of "Europe" in general if that's what they're looking for.

> In paris those 50k wont allow you to live in a nice central apartment.

Exactly, and that's the whole problem to me. Most young engineers will usually rent a very small appartment in the beginning, get a roommate or live somewhere far out in the suburbs.

Interestingly enough,just a few years ago €50k was an absurd salary in a lot of Eastern/Central European countries, however fast forward to 2021 and it's not that uncommon for those with experience. The quality of life would be absolutely incomparable having such salary in let's say Talin va Paris.

From my experience, Switzerland is definitely better compared to countries like, let's say, Germany, in almost every area of life - standard of living, salaries, closeness to the nature, taxes, healthcare - you name it.

Average salaries for devs : - Germany: 50k EUR / year; - Switzerland: 95k CHF / year. Of course, it depends on the specific canton/city/town when you want to settle down, but you need to take to account taxes as well. In Germany, they will tax you pretty heavily, around 50%, and Swiss taxation is ~30%, more or less.

Of course those are rough estimations, but you get the point.

In terms of costs of living, it is expensive, especially if you want to live in Zurich, but for a dev earning ~100k it won't be that much of an issue. Of course, you can choose a smaller town and cut down all expenses in half :slight_smile:

Sources: SwissDevJobs.ch, GermanTechJobs.de, Payscale.com, Numbeo.com

Agree on that - spent a few years in Switzerland and consider it the best place for devs in Europe.

Beautiful lakes and mountains are another nice perk there.

There is a bias for EU citizens now that Switzerland has entered the Schengen. And if you are American, opening up a bank account to have your salary deposited in is problematic (or was a few years ago).

You can't compare plain salaries without looking at the buying power though. Switzerland is expensive as fuck.

Switzerland has the highest salaries in whole Europe. It's easy to dismiss 50k as peanuts living there, but look around - Italy, Spain, Czech Republic, salaries there are not that high and 50k might be a standard for someone with ~5y of experience

Switzerland is a country of its own class and in most cases shouldn't and can't be compared to the rest of Europe. Yes,the salaries are higher, much higher, compared to other countries in Europe,but it's not that high either. Switzerland is very expensive. Also, because it's a high cost country,a lot of of the tech jobs seem to be on the high end of the spectrum, which means some JS+ HTML knowledge wouldn't result in employment, which may be the case in some places in the US.

How can there still be these huge gaps in salary between Europe and the US ? You would expect US Tech giants to come in and swoop all the top local talent, thus raising overall demand.

"It would kinda take the wind out of the idea if they had to tell you that none of these jobs pay more than $50k." That's around 41k€. What country are you from? These numbers are certainly way off for Frankfurt and other bigger German cities. We pay around 45k€ for a junior (!) developer and we're a pre-market startup and I know for a fact that this is a bit lower than the market standard.

Why is no one mentioning buying power as proper means to compare salaries? Also the health care stuff, rent, owning a car, retirement plans, all these things are widely different in cost and what you actually need. No one needs a car if you live in a city like Frankfurt for example. This all depends heavily on the country and region.

If you haven't thought of these things yet, you might think a bit about moving to a different country, because otherwise you'll be disappointed.

Hello, everyone! It’s Andrew, founder of Relocate.me.

In a nutshell, Relocate.me is a one-stop platform for tech professionals who are willing to relocate for work.

Since launching Relocate.me on Hacker News over 3 years ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15922401), a lot has changed, and I’m excited to finally introduce Relocate.me 3.0 with a batch of new features and enhancements:

1) Learning center (https://relocate.me/learning-center): A treasure trove of useful information and practical advice on finding employment abroad.

2) Companies (https://relocate.me/companies): A handpicked list of tech companies hiring internationally; you can filter companies by country.

3) Improved search (https://relocate.me/search)

4) Calculators (https://relocate.me/net-pay-calculators) to estimate your after-taxes paycheck in 20+ countries

5) “Who Wants to be Relocated?” initiative (https://relocate.me/wwbr): A public list of potential tech hires promoted among international recruiters.

6) Non-developer jobs with relocation assistance. Including (but not limited to) Product Manager, Design, and Marketing roles.

7) Telegram channel (https://t.me/relocateme): A quick way to keep up to date with new positions as they’re posted, relevant news, and more.

Thank you so much for reading this far! Our team will be happy to hear your feedback.

I see a bunch of calculator but there's no level bands or numbers for compensation when browsing positions.

Good point. Actually we thought about adding this info to vacancy pages. However, as our experience shows, many companies are not ready to disclose salary info to the public.

Then how do they plan to hide anything above mediocre? Most good+ engineers I know will not waste time on an interview if they do not know upfront that the company pays a sane wage. Else it is a time waste.

I think that quick research about the company can give a rough idea about the salary they offer.

In most cases, it's possible to find feedback from past employees on Glassdoor.

Because this project might provide value in aggregating and filtering the data (i.e. remote job postings) in other ways that still add a lot of value to a certain kind of user.

I won’t get to an interview without an idea that there’s a possible overlap in our picture of compensation, but I don’t mind taking the first 15 zoom call if the job otherwise seems interesting.

> However, as our experience shows, many companies are not ready to disclose salary info to the public.

Depends on the demographic you are trying to attract on the platform.

I've done a little bit of tech recruiting and I can tell you this: top engineers, no matter the level, get a lot of offer. And they won't hesitate to sort by compensation (unless of course it's SpaceX).

Really, there are two kinds of businesses out there: those that try to make money playing games with compensation and CoL adjustments and those who make money building the best software out there and scaling. The later won't have any problem giving a number: they need the talent right now to scale.

No kidding. The amount of contact I've had over the last few years, by what might be best-tagged as 'low-ballers'? Absurd.

The most amusing, puerile trick goes somewhat like this:

Looking for junior full stack dev. Expert at query optimization, scaling, python, etc

Junior?! Add the word 'expert' once, and by no means is it a junior role.

I recently had a recruiter approach me with a job description such as:

"Able to mentor junior devs"

along with

"Make key decisions" about this and that, peppered throughout the job description.

Ah. I see. A management role, under the guise of a 'junior' job title. On top of this, my linkedin shows 10+ years experience!

Why are you even calling me for a junior role to begin with? Well the answer is obvious. Keyword search, without even glancing at the linkedin profile.

Then on top of all of that, the pay is below the average junior role position locally. Wha?!

Precisely what are these people looking for? An "extremely intelligent", "driven" and "highly capable" dev, combined with "gullible" and "easy to trick"?

And even if you find such a person, what's the point of it all, when they get offered 2x the salary in 3 months?

I just don't get it.

These are the people who used to sell mobile phones in your local shopping center before, by some luck, ended up in recruitment.They have no idea that JS and Java aren't the same. They tend to call random people hoping something will stick. Sometimes, such recruiters get hired by equally delusional companies and hence the results you described.

If I email these companies and tell them my friend might be interested I guarantee they will give me a range. Same thing with recruiters.

I definitely think there is a market for figuring this out and mashing it up on job pages with a browser extension.

looks like a great resource for the developer community. Where do you expect the developers to move from, and move to?

Thanks for the warm words. It’s funny, but we did a poll yesterday about the most desired work abroad destination among 589 developers (exclude my vote - it was Japan). You can find the results - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ga2y72eqwcd9bp6/Relocate.me%20Marc...

I know that there are state level taxes as well in the US. Can this be included in the calculator?

Also I wonder what the difference in disposable income would be given something like (typical) health insurance, food prices, and housing per state/area

Thanks a lot for the feedback on the US salary calculator! Makes sense... Added this to the backlog

Andrew, it would be interesting to hear a bit about the founding story. One question I'd like to ask is how did you acquire the customers in the early days? What was the plan for that and what actually worked?

I started a recruitment agency first... After a while, I realized that it was almost impossible to scale this business as well as to be somehow unique comparing to other recruiting firms. It took me around 3 years to negotiate buying the Relocate.me domain name and then the Relocate.me story started.

It helped a lot that I was in this field for almost 5 years before launching Relocate.me. So the first users came through the word of mouth and a Product Hunt campaign.

Moreover, we 'manually' invited software engineers to the platform, those who somehow expressed their interest in moving abroad (haha, this can help - https://relocateme.eu/blog/how-to-source-for-software-develo...)

I’ve noticed that projects like this primarily focus on recruiting for software roles (which is understandable if they are shared here), but what are the roadblocks to listing traditional engineering roles (mechanical, electrical, etc). Lack of exposure to those industries (understandable)? Companies not offering relevant positions?

I would assume the biggest roadblock is they actually build physical products

You've already described the main roadblocks. I suppose that those industries have less in-demand vacancies comparing to software engineering, as well as companies are not offering so many positions with relocation support.

Non-software engineering disciplines tend to involve professional licensing that doesn't necessarily carry over automatically to other countries.

In my experience, the good ones do.

Medical typically does

Not necessarily. You might need to get country specific additional training which can be either easy to get or .. well not.

I'm sure this strongly depends on where. I don't really know the state of the world today, but very distinctly remember curves being destroyed in the late 90s early 00s by a flood of professional engineers and medical doctors fleeing former Soviet republics to the US and not having their licenses or even degrees recognized and having to go back to school. There was a time where the quality of students in Los Angeles community colleges was probably higher than an average Ivy League university because of this.

Who wants to move to Europe to make 2k a month doing electrical or mechanical engineering? Since working for a US based competitor is not feasible from Europe in these fields, the pay tends to suck.

Legit question, how many people are being relocated currently? I would have thought Corona would have really messed up your flow but I keep getting emails from you guys with jobs so I assume it's still happening.

I'd be curious as well, though I've met people in the last year who have made moves with the correct visas. Not on this platform though. It seems like the flights were the hardest part.

The annual salary in the calculator goes up to $140,000 for the US. This needs to be way higher if we're talking Bay Area.

Thanks for the feedback! In your opinion, what would be a realistic figure for the Bay Area?

I found this survey: https://www.builtinsf.com/salaries/dev-engineer/senior-softw...

Average for senior engineers is around $200K, upper limit towards $300K.

Why not just make it open to typing in the sum, at least optionally?

We'll think about it, many thanks!

Could also go up just a bit more, say 180k of a little more range and add a + to take care of anything over that. So the end of the range would be $180k+.

https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=google&year=2020

Median base salary at google is 149, and there are plenty of offers in the 200-400 range with outliers well above that. From personal experience 140 is on the low range for 3 years experience in the major US tech markets (Seattle, Bay, Austin)

Take a look at https://www.levels.fyi/, which has pretty accurate salaries for Bay Area companies.

Agreed. As soon as I saw that I closed the tab, concluding the whole site isn’t for people in my career/at my career stage.

Is there also 'dontrelocate.me' for my next remote tech job abroad?

Yes, I too am looking for this site.

Been looking for a country where I can seek permanent residence status (and maybe, later, citizenship) with my family without having to give up my 1099 (contractor) US remote job and find something local (no, I'm not trying to dodge taxes, and I'd fully expect to pay normal taxes on that income for wherever I ended up). Coming from the US (all of us are native-born citizens).

It's been tricky. I get why there's not some kind of policy or program in place, since that's a pretty niche circumstance, but I don't see how it wouldn't be a good thing for whichever country I'd end up in. I don't make SV-bucks but I make more than I'd easily be able to in, say, Canada, and I'd be spending that money and paying taxes in the new country (I'm not at a level of income where I'd get double-taxed by the US, though I'd have to file there). At the same time, having to job-hunt and probably take a pay cut to find a job before we even move would suck, since I already have a job I like, that's fully remote.

Anyone got any helpful info on that situation, that I may not have come across elsewhere?

I have exactly the same solution. Job I like, fully remote, place I want to move to (with family) and seek permanent residence status outside the US, don't want to cheat taxes. I'd love some info on how to make this happen.

I only mentioned the tax thing because for some reason when I've brought this up other places people thought I was trying to avoid paying taxes. So I figured I'd head that off at the beginning.

I just want to move somewhere with a decent social system (esp. healthcare, though none of us are or expect to be sick in the near future—I'm also not trying to cheat a healthcare system in some fashion) and good schools, and use my certainly-except-in-a-handful-of-expensive-cities above-median income to pay taxes and support the local economy like anyone else. 95% of why I want to do this is so my kids can grow up somewhere with saner government and a generally saner society. None of why I want to do it is to cheat anyone. I'd just rather not also have to change jobs (and probably take a pay cut, and likely end up back in an office, too) to do it. :-/

Most countries have money based visas. Everybody that can proof that they earn enough mone for them and their family can get a visa in switzerland for example. Its not exactly a lot either.

Checkout the Taiwan Gold card! 4-1 visa with very few restrictions.

https://taiwangoldcard.com/

FYI my understanding is US citizens are exempt from US taxes as long as you spend 330 days of the year outside the US.

You still have to file a tax return, you just don't pay anything.

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore...

> you just don't pay anything.

(if you earn under 100k USD/yr)

Limit's higher for families. You still have to file, though.

If you’re making Software Engineer money, I understand that the Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) is almost always going to be better than the Foreign Earned Income Exemption (FEIE) which is hard to revoke as your income increases.

You'll still owe Social Security. Still, a very large savings if your host country is low tax.

If you are American citizen, just be aware of FBAR and FACTA. You can reduce your US taxes, but not really, because then you have to pay local taxes. Also, your tax reporting requirements go up.

If you're interested in the EU, there are treaties like the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty that allow you to get on the path towards permanent residence for a modest investment, assuming you're already self-employed.

https://expatlaw.nl/dutch-american-friendship-treaty

If I was going to move out of the US, I'd take a long hard look at that one.

It would be nice to see more details about salaries. Its hard enough to know pay rates in your own city. I have no idea if Finland pays enough to make it worth it.

Language is a big issue too, are they all English speaking offices?

As a UK user on mobile over 30% of the viewable area is a cookie alert.

There’s no need for tracking cookies on the home page as shown by Github’s recent blog post [0]

0. https://github.blog/2020-12-17-no-cookie-for-you/

Good point! Thanks for sharing

There's seemingly no way to refuse those cookies, and no way to get any relocation tips without signing up.

Cool project! I'd be interested in relocating to Singapore, but there's only one position listed (and that position provides no relocation package info). I'm sure the slim pickings can be explained by covid, but what did offerings look like before the health crisis? Do you have snapshots or stats on how many you've assisted in relocation?

No offense but why are there still platforms where devs apply to companies? How can this work when you have significant more demand than supply?

Bonus question: Why relocate in times where even FAANG heavily hires remote people to the same conditions as their local staff?

> Bonus question: Why relocate in times where even FAANG heavily hires remote people to the same conditions as their local staff?

They are still not "heavily" hiring remote. Many are just hiring remote while COVID is still around. They ask people to relocate to one of their offices after.

Are you saying that the demand for developers is greater than the supply ? Where exactly? Bonus Answer: Some of us live in countries we want to get the fuck out of :(

I am actively trying to relocate, and found this site useful. Existing sites (say LinkedIn) don't have a way to filter for "open for visa sponsorship" jobs. (Stack Overflow job listing is the only other site I found which allows you to look for only visa sponsorship jobs.)

I've been thinking of relocating for a while, but also feel a sort of guilt about it. I must admit that the main reason for my doing it is that I feel increasingly disillusioned with the United States, where the paths of both the "left" and the "right" seem equally disappointing. There is a deep sense of social malaise that I feel, while here, and I cannot help but attribute it to that form of neoliberalism that is spreading across the world. And so I feel that my migration would be not so different than the spread of a pestilence of sorts, infecting what I hope will save me.

I am reminded of Society of the Spectacle, specifically thesis 165.

165 Capitalist production has unified space, breaking down the boundaries between one society and the next. This unification is at the same time an extensive and intensive process of banalization. Just as the accumulation of commodities mass-produced for the abstract space of the market shattered all regional and legal barriers and all the Medieval corporative restrictions that maintained the quality of craft production, it also undermined the autonomy and quality of places. This homogenizing power is the heavy artillery that has battered down all the walls of China.

The fact of the matter is there’s no running away from what happens in the US. Many people leave really good socialists countries because they are basically bored or not challenged enough; so if you want exciting career US is still the best bet. Also whatever happens in the US bleeds slowly everywhere, it’s the vanguard. Don’t forget the grass is always greener on the other side: you’re either looking at a third world country or a place that’s paradoxicall Even worse housing wise than the US.

It's the lack of culture, homogeneization. Living in Seattle I'm constantly reminded of the lackluster quality of food.

If those are your reasons then realistically I don't think you'll be happy with relocation to anywhere on Earth. The best you could do is to get a short term visa to a country with a different culture - enjoy the first few months, and get back before you discover the same (or a different type of) social malaise :)

I would curious if anyone has heard of any relocation activity to the EU happening during the last year given the Covid situation and restrictions. It looks like there's a fair amount of posts for Germany and the Netherland for instance.

Yes. The main difference, other than the worse job market, are a few days quarantene in some countries. Plenty of people are relocating to switzerland right now

It's a job board. Am I missing anything?

It gives you tips but not without taking your name and email. It also has a cookie notice that doesn't let you decline.

Cool idea, I hope it grows. Would like to see more positions in Asian countries, they currently appear very limited.

We’ll definitely add more jobs in Asia. Thanks

Agoda is one of the biggest tech companies in Thailand, they hire internationally.

Don't forget us network engineers who want to move abroad :) Would love to see a category for that

We won't. Handpicking jobs with relocation assistance takes quite a lot of time, but will do our best to expand the list of available job offering as much and fast as possible

Its a good idea

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