Scientists announce a physical warp drive is possible
esquire.com
esquire.com
That is cool, but at the same time it only works for subluminal speeds so not really what "warp" speed usually refers to.
Offtopic, but it kinda reminds me of the science fiction story of a young scientist trying to get funding for hyperspace research. In the end it turns out that hyperspace has been explored decades ago but the speed of light is even lower in hyperspace than in real space.
That's some cold comfort, since all timespans are much shorter than "never".
All that's left are photons, moving at the speed of light, experiencing no time, and never meeting each other as the universe expands away faster than they move.
"It's hard to bore a photon." -- Roger Penrose
If you check the paper, they are clear that physical warp drive do not allow faster than light travel. It moves only at subluminal speeds. In any case, warp drives (physical or non-physical) are just theoretically interesting.
Taking mass of few solar systems and building a tiny microscopic vehicle that fits inside the bubble is not practical way to travel.
Fully agree. If interstellar travel ever occurs, it seems more practical to simply freeze people for thousands or millions of years for the journey and stop trying to fit it into the current human lifespan.
All we need is artificial mass.
That's doesn't make sense.
I think you meant negative mass.
https://eyeofmidas.com/scifi/Turtledove_RoadNotTaken.pdf
It’s a fun read. (20 pages)
If we are at short sci-fi stories... I fell in love with Marc Stiegler's ' The Gentle Seduction' which I revisit every few months for pure enjoyment. Found it listed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7203702
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propu...
Picturing this in my head was certainly a treat :)
In TNG, they don't practically behave much differently from the warp core, but some of the video game spin-offs had fun with the idea, having destroyed Romulan warbirds collapse into their own engine core, which then evaporated because it was unstable outside of the confines of the gravitational field.
The "warp core" on a ship is just the power plant. The nacelles under the saucer house the "field coil" machinery that generates a warp field.
Yes, this is gobbledygook. But no moreso than regular "subspace" or anything else in Trek.
For power (ed: including their standard warp drive), the Discovery still has a plain old M/AM reactor. And yes, I did just use the phrase "plain old M/AM reactor" hah
So using "STD" has turned into kind of a unsavory gatekeepy dogwhistle. It tends to bring out the worst types of stereotypical toxic fandom. /r/DaystromInstitute even automod-bans it for that reason.
That's wrong too. In TOS, it was basically a fusion rocket driving plasma rockets. In TNG and later, they added a sub-space field to decrease the mass of the ship involved.
Yeah even in TNG-era the impulse engine is fusion, used for both sublight propulsion and as a backup power source.
Why YES, I DID bust out my old Tech Manual. Thank you for asking. Page 75.
As much as one may find popular entertainment diverting, and maybe even think Roddenberrianism is anything more than Cowboys in Space, this popular culture is nonetheless an oceanic quantity of codswalllop disguised as something essential in consumerism.
Whether or not Bart Simpson mocked Batman with cutting sarcasm, our obsession with this rubbish has left Democracy vulnerable to usurpation by... Klingons and Ferengi. (o;
And the show's own correspondence with itself is also quite loose.
Honestly, people's fuzzy ideas about how warp drives work are probably pretty accurate because I don't think there's a lot of reason to believe that the show in general had anything other than an equally fuzzy idea. Specific writers for specific episodes may have, but I wouldn't say there was "a" lore to argue so firmly about.
https://www.askamathematician.com/2012/07/q-how-does-instant...
http://www.physicsmatt.com/blog/2016/8/25/why-ftl-implies-ti...
http://www.theculture.org/rich/sharpblue/archives/000089.htm...
The important bit is that it doesn't matter HOW information is transmitted FTL – it can be via wormholes or magic. For observers in another reference frame it will still result in causality violations.
If I got in a faster than light spaceship and traveled to Jupiter, and then turned around and came right back, I would arrive before I left and could shake my own hand on the launchpad.
If we think humans will soon figure out FTL, it makes one wonder why we've not yet seen any human FTL spaceships from the future.
Let's say your spaceship can go to Jupiter in one second (Edit: as measured from Earth), which would require FTL speed. Then you turn around and come back. You've still arrived two seconds after you left.
At Jupiter, you could look through a super-telescope and see yourself still on Earth, but you still aren't really seeing yourself, because you are not still on Earth. You are just seeing the photons you passed during the trip, catching up to you.
FTL enables a kind of time travel that isn't going back in time to shake your own hand. It allows two people in two different reference frames to disagree about whether A caused B or B caused A. You don't get to go "back in time" but you can send somebody lottery results before they're drawn (from somebody's perspective).
That is exactly what it is. You should read the links above to understand what's being claimed.
Now... Please explain to me how communicating through time will allow you to literally, physically, shake your own hand as was claimed.
Why this is effectively time travel is harder to explain without getting into relativity and I'm not going to try right now. The main thing to get though is that you just can't observe events before they happen. It violates causality and if you allow for that (like you totally can with math) then nothing makes any sense and you can't use that math to describe how we know the world to work in any useful way.
Why is that a problem? So let's say I'm on the moon and you're on Earth, and you're watching me through a telescope. I use an FTL cell phone to text you "Hi". Your phone buzzes, you read the message, then visually observe me through the telescope typing the message before you've received it. I guess I just don't understand why that really matters or violates causality. You're just seeing outdated information. There's no way you can interact with my "past" self that you can see through the telescope, it's just a visual artifact.
The explanation for this is complicated, however, so I would suggest you look at the links provided earlier in these comments for a more comprehensive explanation.
These are the sort of contradictions that break our understand of causality once you introduce FTL.
The main thing in the situation you're describing is that it's one way. Make it two way, imagine getting a message saying "don't send that message" from someone who has already seen the message you're about to send.
You can imagine this and that's part of the problem understanding the issue I think. But if this combination of events was possible very many things that we know to be true about spacetime would have to not be true.
It wouldn’t be FTL but it would be a kind of “massless” drive in that it would get around the propellant mass issues with accelerating to near light speed. It would “cheat” by warping space instead of accelerating at all in the conventional sense.
The Centauri system is a little under 5 years away with such a drive.
A massless drive would open up exploration of the galaxy within the life time of a human being. Even though on Earth, thousands of years would pass, so it's kind of a one-way exploration nevertheless.
As it is not the ship that is exceeding the speed of light within a local reference frame (the "warp bubble) but the spacetime.
But the feasibility of such a drive is purely understood at the moment as it seems such a drive would allow for causality violations.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1005.1614 -- it is highly technical, but has this as the kicker:
"we would then insist that the final field configuration is, not what the observer wills it to be, but rather what follows, evolving these data via [dynamical equations]"
Notably, this is backwards from the Alcubierre drive's formulation, which starts with a desired final field configuration, and is trapped by having no "before the bubble existed" initial values surface. The Alcubierre solution is eternal, and offers no way to be stitched into our apparently non-eternal universe (it sure seems to have a beginning, or at least an early hot/dense boundary close to which the presence of an Alcubierre bubble seems even less physically plausible than today).
Although it is safe to describe really fantastical configurations of matter very near that early boundary, one has to settle things down in far less than seconds, in order to match several different lines of evidence of about the distribution of the first free-streaming photons (and the earlier free-streaming neutrinos, when we figure out how to build observatories to study them in detail). You could put Alcubierre bubbles everywhere during Cosmic Inflation, for instance, but you have to very quickly and aggressively suppress their observables.
Let's turn this on its head: we can in principle construct a spacelike values-surface at time today and let it evolve. A problem we have with this is that the presence of either or both of not-yet-formed or formed-but-eventually-evaporating black holes makes a complete calculation of some far future values-surface impossible in principle, as far as we know, which means in the absence some new fundamental theory of quantum gravity that has yet to be discovered. Putting an Alcubierre drive onto the same today values-surface likewise blocks the complete calculation of the future values-surface, in principle. Dusting the cosmos with lots of Alcubierre drives makes things much worse. But maybe that's OK, because the cosmos appears to be dusted with lots of black holes and configurations of matter (like our own Virgo cluster) that will inevitably mostly settle into giant black holes that may one day evaporate. This means we can't really make a concrete prediction about the far future of our cosmos, in principle. I wouldn't sweat it, because we can't set down much more than the barest approximation of the real values-surface in practice anyway.
So since we already have problems with causality thanks to gravitational singularities (or if you prefer, apparent trapping surfaces), and we have excellent evidence of them existing in our universe, an argument that "X poses problems for causality and therefore must be unphysical" is not especially compelling.
Instead, the problem grinds down into [a] laying out an initial values surface gets harder, especially if we can't rely on a programme of pushing it further and further back in time so that unusual configurations of matter (black holes, Alcubierre bubbles) have the ability to develop through dynamical laws (which is what we do with physical cosmology, for instance); and [b] writing down the dynamical laws that relate neighbouring values-surfaces (which gets harder because we need more than the Lorentz symmetry group and GL(4).
It might be fun to try to make [a] and [b] work in the presence of various FTL mechanisms, and indeed to some extent we do this in very specific settings (cosmic inflation, for instance). However, from the time of the CMB to now there is nothing to suggest a need to account for FTL material (or normal material embedded in a dynamical spacetime that moves it around FTL-style) at any scale, from the cosmological to the laboratory. The theory would undoubtedly be much more complicated than what we already have (which has already evolved and become more complicated as more evidence has become available), so there would not be much point to it.
Finally, two extracts from the Geroch paper:
"[I]n a similar vein, there exist solutions of Einstein’s equation in general relativity that manifest closed causal curves. But we do not ... allow observers to build time-machines at their pleasure. Instead, we permit observers to construct initial conditions — and then we require that they live with the consequences of those conditions."
which is exactly the opposite of Alcubierre's approach in https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0009013v1 where he starts with a time machine first, and never describes the initial conditions before it exists. One would usually expect that for any artifact such as a spacecraft, there is a time before which it is fully built and switched on. One might compare that with an eternal Schwarzschild black hole and a black hole that forms via gravitational collapse of a massive star (or direct collapse of matter in the early universe).
And, "from the present viewpoint the problems associated with superluminal signals do not seem nearly as severe as they did at first glance", a statement that is likely safe should such signals ever be proven.
"Preferred" foliations are perfectly fine in relativity when picked out by the matter. Working relativists do it all the time. One just has to be careful about preserving Lorentz-covariance for observers whose time axis is badly misaligned from the "preferred" one, because the (invariant sector of) physics must be identical for them. In particular a good choice of time axis along which to split spacetime values into time-ordered spatial values is a thermodynamic arrow of time that applies to the vast majority of the matter subject to dynamical equations.
Example preferred foliations are the cosmological scale factor, and terrestrial atomic time like UTC; they are picked out by the symmetries of the matter (large scale homogeneity and isotropy, near-sphericity and near-rotationlessness, respectively). "Lab frames" for example, are often UTC. That relativity provides mechanism to transform tensor-components as one switches systems of coordinates (or frames) is a great freedom.
The point is that in e.g. the cosmological foliation, an FTL (but not instantaneous) traveller will only be at one location on a cosmlogical values surface.
Geroch's point is that one should just accept this picture and calculate the evolution of field-values in the presence of objects with causal cones of different widths. There is no causality violation with very gentle assumptions about the spacetime. There are likely to be weird observations though, peculiar to the observers. But we can already have weird stroboscopic effects and so forth for merely very fast (not even relativistic!) travellers thanks to thinks like the persistence of vision or analogues in cameras and detectors.
However, an instantaneous traveller (>>>>> FTL, literally infinite speed and causal cones that are infinite in width) may mathematically appear up to infinite times on a single spacelike hypersurface. This does make a mess unless one can extract from the FTL traveller's configuration an equation of motion with enough constraints to make predictions. (For instance, if you have too many copies in the same "slice" of spacetime, does the entire spacetime collapse into a black hole? Can the copies be inside each other? Or only the bosons? And so on.)
Finally, a backwards time traveller need not even do FTL. Again, it will appear twice (or more) on well-chosen values surfaces, posing no problems for causality analysis. Here we return to the question of the thermodynamic arrow-of-time.
Let's consider a Rocket(with some amount of fuel) accelerating (gently) to the right, leaving an exhaust, that an intertial observer ticking at t watches :
t_0 R(10)
t_1 eR(9)
t_2 eeR(8)
t_3 eeeR(7)
t_4 eeeeR(6)
in this small picture one would pick out a thermodyanmic arrow of time pointing downwards, because the rocket+exhaust's Boltzmann entropy is increasing. The fuel is well-ordered in the rocket's tank, and much more disordered in the exhaust.But the dynamical equations in this arrangement of matter is perfectly reversible. Let's complicate this a bit:
t_0 R(10) eeeeeeeeeR(1)
t_1 eR(9) eeeeeeeeR(2)
t_2 eeR(8) eeeeeeeR(3)
t_3 eeeR(7) eeeeeeR(4)
t_4 eeeeR(6) eeeeeR(5)
Here we have what time travel looks like with this foliation: A rocket behaving normally, and a rocket that is picking up fuel from a hot exhaust, storing it orderly into its tank.R, moving gently through space, sees the thermodynamically-opposite copy out the window in both directions. R believes there is a weird causality violation, because one copy of R sees a copy of itself with less fuel (and wristwatches showing times in the future, but ticking backwards).
However, t just sees a time traveller, where the backwards time traveller has an opposite thermodynamic arrow of time.
Now we make t the entire cosmic microwave background in its cosmological rest frame, cooling towards the down direction. R can measure the temperature (and dipole redshift from the gentle acceleration) of the CMB and decide whether R is moving forwards or backwards in time relative to the cosmos.
This is basically the resolution to (most) time-travel dilemmas in the initial-value/Hamiltonian formulations of General Relativity: equip the spacetime with a distribution of matter (the cosmic microwaves) and nonzero cosmological constant (cosmic expansion or contraction) and use those two features to define a cosmological scale factor that one can use as a principled clock.
Physical cosmology is some complications on this picture: we have other fluids as well as the CMB, and they dilute away (in the direction of expansion) differently.
There are also of course observers who are moving extremely compared to the slowly-separating galaxy clusters, not just relativistically but at enormous accelerations. These observers are a tiny fraction compared to the cosmological observers.
(A bigger problem is that the clumpy observers -- galaxy clusters and things in them -- have to be "stitched in" to the cosmological frame, and that must be a mass-dependent calculation, and is dealt with in various ways including "swiss cheese" models or using thin-shell Israel-Darmois junctions. However the corrections are small and the thermodyanmic arrows of time are still very closely aligned, so occupants of galaxies, even near massive black holes, would still prefer to think of t_n as picking out the difference between forward-time-travelling R and backwards-time-travelling-R).
Finally, it is in isolation that the dynamical evolution of R (and e) shows serious causality or closed-system-thermodynamics violations. We would expect to repair that by embedding R (and e) into the wider foliation, which is built out of a block-universe equipped with several spacetime-filling fields. If the block universe contains a pattern like the second diagram above, then the dynamical field equations must obviously allow them. But Geroch's point is the other side if this: let's start with the known dynamical field equations, and see where they take us. They might not take us to a schematic like the one above, and the absence of observations like the picture above weighs heavily towards laying down some initial data (say at t_-1000) and seeing how it evolves. Maybe it can evolve to show t_0 through t_5, maybe it cannot.
Relatedly, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe where instead of flipping the thermodynamic arrow of time of our backwards-and-forwards time traveller, we are flipping the sign of the electric charge.
So the stated problem with causality violations is that if you went to the past and did something the(n), it's going to change the future from which you started.
What if it doesn't? As in, you can't really do anything which changes future, for a reason that an arbitrary numbers of time travelers have already went to past, changed it and had it reflected in the future, so after all those changes the timeline stabilized in an eigenline - that is, the future is robust towards any subsequent changes via the past. In this way there is no causality violation - go ahead, travel to past, try to change anything, the whole world is arranged so that the future won't be affected, one way or another. Roughly speaking, you won't succeed trying to kill your grandfather no matter how'd you try - something will always happen which would prevent it.
That's actually a conjecture suggested by Stephen Hawking [1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_protection_conjectu...
What does this actually mean? We’d have two giant Tesla coils buzzing with a universe worth of electricity? Giant magnets? Super space lasers?