Hacker News Reader

Comment by melomal | Hacker News Reader

> was talking to a bunch of Chinese servers constantly

Out of curiosity do you want Chinese companies to use US servers? Or where would servers be ideally placed for a Chinese brand to be accepted? I genuinely am curious to know.

View on HN

Is this a serious question? How about don't contact any external server unless the user clicks an update button (or possibly on a schedule time the user has specifically allowed). After that, there is no legit reason for a device sensing the temperature in my home, a light switch, an electrical plug to ever call "home" about how it is being used. Maybe, just maybe, if the device detects that it is failing or other serious errors that might be okay, but if and ONLY if the user has specifically allowed that to happen. I don't care if the server is located in the US, China, Timbuktu, or Atlantis, and I don't care if the company is based in the US, China, or Martian. Just don't do it.

I think you're both on the same page here, but (and I'm also guessing here) I think OP implies there's a certain bias when it comes to chinese servers. And I too have this feeling, that if it's a server in the "western world" not a lot of people would bat an eye. But if it's a chinese or russian server, now that's something "we don't want".

This is what I am trying to figure out. I have a UK focused website therefore I use UK based servers, US focused website I use US based servers.

Aren't most processing chips/hardware made in China for all major western tech companies anyway? I get the RU/China server suspiciousness but as far as I can tell, US unicorns are up to the same tricks and openly/brazenly pillaging data without any threat or fear.

We're in a western/US-centric bubble here on HN. People are aware data collection is bad, they'd rather not have it at all even if they'll accept some from Google, MS, Amazon, etc., but most of all they'd rather not have China/Russia/NK/etc. have any that data. As you can already tell, just asking the question is enough to get flak.

Otherwise most consumer products (devices or software) phone home for one reason or another, whether it's telemetry and data collection, basic functionality that's implemented exclusively via cloud, or more advanced cloud features. It's down to deciding whether you trust western legal system and increased transparency to deal with the nefarious aspect of data collection, rather than the Russian, Chinese, etc. legal systems and transparency.

Almost every device or software with network connectivity I played with phoned home: the Philips Hue gateway (Netherlands), Tado (Germany), Apple Homepod (US), Amazon Alexa/Fire* stuff (US), Synology (Taiwan), Unifi Controller (US), LG/Samsung smart TVs (South Korea), Google Chromecast (US), random assortment of network connected cameras (China, Taiwan), and a big etc. here. Some do a better job than others and just connect for basic stuff as far as I can tell, some enabled telemetry without asking and after the backlash ask again after every update, some have no option to disable this connectivity, etc.

One thing that trips most people looking at this for the first time is when they start off with blocking internet connectivity for the least trustworthy devices (Chinese brands) and immediately see a zillion attempts being blocked, even if the device keeps working. They conclude the devices are trying to exfiltrate that much data. They're most likely constantly reattempting until they get a response. Some of my network cameras would try every second but after a successful connection the flood stopped and they barely sent anything.

I chose to "complicate" my life a bit and buy hardware that I can flash with some open source firmware cutting out the cloud features completely, or connecting via "home made" solutions everywhere I can then using my home VPN to control them if needed. Whether China or the US have that data is of little real consequence to me right now but it's a matter of principle and I'd rather not shift my principles based on geography.

Thank you for your response and clarification! Your point on the multiple attempts to connect etc seems to make sense. I would imagine a lot of people checking these requests may jump to conclusions that every piece of data is being pulled across.

> just asking the question is enough to get flak

You are definitely right about that!

Of course (almost?) no government is a saint. However, China is a totalitarian non-democratic government. I would fear the Chinese government much more than the US or UK governments, for example. But I might be too naive.

> I would fear the Chinese government

If you are outside of China then surely there is nothing to really be scared of? What could the Chinese government do with your data that could cause harm?

I get it's the principle but ultimately we are all scared of sharing our data with China and I am not sure why?

I don't get it either. Whenever someone uses the words "the West" I cringe because because every goddamn privacy invasion has come from our friendly American overlords. Who I might ad are not just like us.

> I cringe because because every goddamn privacy invasion has come from our friendly American overlords

Exactly! It seems that the propaganda machine is still rolling heavy.

There is a big difference. An open, democratic government can be peacefully corrected. A closed, totalitarian government cannot be. If the chinese and russian governments were open, then we could worry less about them.

Western governments operate mass surveillance programs seemingly without any public open oversight or democratic input.

The United Kingdom has more CCTV activity than any other European country, per capita. No-one bats an eyelid. They have also been using facial recognition to find people in the crowd with a really poor rate of success. No one seems to batter an eye lid, China does the same and everyone is going crazy.

The big difference is that you can say President USA is this and that and nothing will happen to you. But speak badly of the Chinese government and you would end up in a shithole for life. Or worst. Or say something bad about the N Korean leader for example. This is totally different.

With totalitarian governments, you never know.

Look what happened to Alexei Navalny.

Look what happened to Sergei and Yulia Skripal in UK?

Again, I am not saying the other governments are saints, but I feel you have much more options in democratic countries.

> Look what happened to Sergei and Yulia Skripal in UK?

The UK is Russia's poison playground so in this instance it would seem that realistically no one is safe, even if you reside in a democratic country. But then again these were people with major clout or enemies of the state.

I think most people assume totalitarian regime that's interested in at the very least being the economic powerhouse of the world, won't have good intentions with collecting everyone's data.

A far better assumption than: "well others do it too, therefore nothing about it can be more nefarious."

I do not want anyone getting their hands on my data, but in order of regions collected data this is my 'preference': EU >>> US > RU >> CN

If Chinese companies place servers in US, then these servers would just be a proxy to feed data to Chinese servers.

To each there own, but I think China will have to fundamentally change at this point for me to have any trust in any Chinese companies. Just look at Alibaba. If they are not safe from CCP influence, then it is safe to assume that all Chinese companies are just shells, or under influence of, the CCP.

I get the fear but what do you imagine would happen to you and your data if the Chinese government got their hands on it? Will they create an internal credit system for the West? If so, how would this affect you.

I'm genuinely curious what people fear will happen to them and their data if it went to a Chinese server. What are the consequences? What is the difference between Amazon running A/B tests to get as much money from you as quickly as possible VS TikTok trying to improve their suggestion algo to improve their engagement for increased ad revenue?

They collect data of all other countries. As their devices become pervasive, the data and thousands of RCEs serve as an aid to intelligence, if your country is competing with or in a fight with China, this is actively harmful.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com