"Senior US general explains rebranding YPG away from terror group PKK" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHpaIO-Pj10
They also generally fight for Kurdish rights and, ethnic pluralism in general (saved several Yazidi towns from ISIS for example), women's rights and democracy (including forms of local direct democracy seen few other places).
The reason PKK and/or YPG/YPJ is on some terrorist lists is mainly because Turkish government is against Kurdish rights in general. Turkey tend to claim any group fighting for Kurdish independence and/or rights to be terrorists.
So if they're ”terrorists” in the same way apartheid South-Africa saw Nelson Mandela, ANC and others fighting apartheid as ”terrorists”.
So you're just gonna omit the fact that they have a decades long history of bombing and killing innocent civilians including kids?
None of this is to say that the PKK has not committed acts which would surely offend western sensibilities, but simply slapping the "terrorist" label on them and calling it a day is not a nuanced way to approach the discussion.
How about nowadays? Nothing is banned yet we still see PKK bombing public buses in our cities. Seriously, when can we call these guys "terrorist"?
These problems were real, yes, Kurdish language was banned, people couldn't say they were Kurdish without any pressure back then but these days are no more. Does "cultural ban happened in the past" justify what PKK is doing now?
That being said, I don't think the PKK explicitly uses these past offenses to justify their continued activity in the conflict. My understanding is that they continue fighting because the Turkish Kurds still lack any meaningful political representation, they oppose Erdogan's push towards Islamic national identity, and because the Turkish State continues to carry out military strikes against Kurdish targets outside Turkey's borders.
I'm by no means an authority on this topic so feel free to correct me if I've made any incorrect statements. It sounds like you're much close to this conflict than I am, in which case my heart goes out to you in wishing for a peaceful resolution to all of this.
I don't think PKK cares about Erdogan's Islamic Turkey dream. You don't see PKK or it's legal party saying anything about it in Turkey, I think they mention it only when they are talking to western media :)
In Turkey, there is secular opposition which is rougly %40-50, they stand against Erdogan's Islamic push but they still lack of %50 + 1 votes to dethrone Erdogan unfortunately.
PKK says they want federalism for Kurdish cities, you can advocate for that, it's okay, their legal party is doing that, that's fine. But when you're holding guns and saying my way or high way, that's a big no. So, if they really care about democratic, secular Turkey, they can put guns aside, get together with opposition in Turkey.
On the flip side, learn the lesson from the iranian revolution. When religious extremists control the government and want to impose their religion on anyone, who holds the guns is the most important questions.
giving them up might be the surrender and death of democratic secular turkey, over time.
Terrorist groups born as a reaction to heavy injustice. Hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians motivate a lot of members of the most popular terrorist groups today.
This has always been like this, we don’t live in a cartoon where the bad guy is 2 dimensional.
To try to understand these groups’ motivations is easy when you are immune to their actions. However, this behaviour is pretty off putting for the other side of the discussion, in this case Turkish people.
I think we need to draw a line somewhere. I don’t know where but this doesn’t feel right for me.
When you start the justification game, you need to do it for other groups too. Otherwise it would come off as hypocritical and dishonest. I don’t know you personally, maybe you do say this for all the “terrorist” groups. But I witness this behaviour online a lot when it comes to the groups that hurt Turkish civilians and I wanted to point it out, maybe this comment can give a bit of perspective to some people.
Also a separate note for the audience, not related with your comment, this is not an Erdogan specific issue as the people from the anglo-sphere tend to claim in this thread. It started before Erdogan, it will continue after Erdogan. If Obama could be the next Turkish president, the situation would still be the same.
> This has always been like this, we don’t live in a cartoon where the bad guy is 2 dimensional.
I completely agree and this was more or less the point of my comment. I'm not attempting to justify the actions of any group in particular, and I certainly don't endorse the use of indiscriminate violence against civilians for any reason.
I'm often bothered by the use of the word "terrorist" because I think it is often used as a means of putting us into this 2 dimensional world and creating a shortcut out of meaningful discussions. I will be the first to admit that my own government is guilty of terrorism under most definitions that people in my part of the world use.
I appreciate your comment, and apologize if mine came off as callous towards people who are suffering as a result of this conflict.
from this month:
> ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said on Monday his ruling AK Party and its nationalist allies may start work on drafting a new constitution, less than four years after overhauling the previous constitution to grant his office sweeping powers.
the coup was justified and it's a tragedy Erdogan hasn't been removed from power. The AKP/Erdogan is no longer serving its people. Erdogan/AKP are the real "terrorists".
The group behind the coup had a perfectly happy marriage with AKP until around 2013, and both of them being islamic groups together they destroyed whatever they could from the previously mostly-secular state. [1] Whatever you see as a problem in Turkey today (say, non-existent separation of powers, human rights abuses, journalists in jail, collapsed legal system, government censorship, economic troubles... and a long list of other things) had their beginnings in this period.
Most of the power they amassed in Turkey was the direct result of this alliance with AKP, and their people filled the government posts while AKP replaced the old guard. After 2013, as a result of internal power struggles this alliance broke up, and in 2016 this organization attempted the coup you mentioned. If they had their way, power would be shifted from one islamic political organization (AKP) to another ("Cemaat"/The Service/FETO or whatever people call them nowadays) who has even less legitimacy.
Anyways, sorry for the wall of text on this comparatively trivial matter, it's just that I find it unfortunate that those guys are now being seen/depicted as some kind of failed saviours in the western media, while in reality they are anything but.
[1] which was maintained under the shadow of the army and wasn't nowhere near perfect either. Though I'd personally take that one over this one any day.
Related: People claimed Cloudflare used to protect ISIS sites. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/nov/19/cloudflar...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Protection_Units
20 million Kurds not having a state despite their will to have it is a major injustice in this world.