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Comment by formerly_proven | Hacker News Reader

The IBM Model M hype is absurdly overblown. Anyone who has used decent mechanical keyboards should be able to pretty much immediately notice just how cost-reduced that keyboard is. It is quite literally the cheapest buckling spring keyboard IBM managed to make in '89, and it shows. Cherry boards are often bashed for their flexing and wobbly cases, but the IBM Model M is hardly better with the top and lower parts of the clamshell having significant play. The Model M is a pure membrane keyboard, and thus limited to 2KRO. The Model M has no replaceable parts.

Why is it a membrane keyboard, when previous models were not? Because it is much cheaper to make.

Why does the Model M has only loosely fitting case parts? Because it is much cheaper to make.

Why does the Model M has plastic rivets that hold the membrane stackup together which always break off due to ageing and bad design after 20 years or so? Because it is much cheaper to make.

Why does the Model M have a single-piece barrel plate with barrels that occasionally break off, rendering the entire keyboard garbage? Because it is much cheaper to make.

Why does the Model M have essentially zero spill resistance? Because the cheap design doesn't permit spill resistance. When you spill water on an M, expect to either have it dry for weeks or months as the water evaporates from between the membranes, or to disassemble it. If it wasn't pure mountain spring water, you have to disassemble it, which--due to plastic rivets-- is a destructive proecss. To reassemble it, you have to drill a bunch of new holes through the actual keyboard parts to put screws in.

Yet despite these significant design and longevity issues the M somehow got a legendary reputation for being "solid"... it really isn't.

Go look at Model F reproductions. Those are solid keyboards. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/

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I own three Model Ms: my grandfather's 87, a '89, and a later Lexmark ('95? too lazy to look). The latter two were given to me by a colleague; they saw (what I can only assume to be, based on their original condition) extensive use at IBM before I cleaned them up. He had 7 others.

I've bolt modded the Lexmark for the day my grandfather's finally needs to be done. But all three have well withstood the test of time: my grandfather's still has most all of its rivets 33 years later. It was his only keyboard at home AFAIK; I've been using it for the last 5 years.

> The Model M has no replaceable parts.

Is categorically false. The stems, keycaps, springs, and membranes can all be replaced quite easily. Unicomp sells replacements. Many have also modded them to replace the controller with something more modern. You just need to find the right hex driver.

Just because there aren't lots of manufactuers (like with oh, say, Cherry-compatible switches or QMK boards) doesn't mean they aren't repairable or moddable.

Don't disagree with most of the rest of your points but... n=3 (+7?) data points, I've never heard of a barrel breaking under normal usage. And cleaning drinks is optional once it is dried :-) The '87 and the '89 both had coffee stains and functioned just fine. I mostly cleaned the barrel plate and moved on with usage. If I bolt mod either, I'll probably clean the membranes.

Fully agree that the Model F is more solid than the Model M. But the Model M feels a lot more solid to me than most anything modern.

Maybe I just got high-quality builds?

I have a 1984 Model M, and keyboards from Das Keyboard (Cherry MX Blues) and WASD (Zealio 67g).

Model M is still my favorite among the three, though it is no longer as "solid" as it used to be. I've only had it and used it for 20 years, but it was in active use before I got it. Not bad for 37 years of typing.

I think a lot of the hype around mechanical keyboards in general is overblown. I had a period of transitioning to mechanical keyboards. I couldn't get used to the high-rise keys and long travel times which made my wrists hurt and made typing a chore. I kept convincing myself that I just had the wrong type of switch, so I changed keyboards every few months seeking that perfect feeling. The closest I got was low-profile blue switches, those were actually fun and something I could use for a daily driver. In the end however, I went back to a chiclet keyboard. It's quiet, travel time is short and I can type on it comfortable for long periods of time.

I've gone through a similar experience. I like the other concepts in keyboards like Ergodox/Moonlander etc., but as far as actual key-press-feel, none of these enthusiast keyboards come close to e.g. macbook keys.

I think my ideal keyboard would be something like the Moonlander + the keys on the new macbook: a little bit of a click but basically zero travel.

It's wild how tastes differ. I absolutely abhor the keypress of macbook keyboards, even more than the one in extremely cheap Acer laptop from ~2009.

I think it is all about preference.

I hated the new MacBook keys the instant I tried them. It felt like I was typing directly on the table. I had no problem with accuracy, but I found it really uncomfortable.

I guess it is like a mattress, some people prefer it firm and others prefer it soft.

I have a Topre keyboard BTW, which I chose by going to a shop and trying plenty of different keyboards without looking at the price and specs. Unfortunately, I ended up preferring the most expensive one...

Switching to an Ergodox with a Dvorak layout changed my life. I used to have crazy pain after 6 - 8 hours of typing. Now I can easily go 12 - 14 with no issues whatsoever.

Obviously that is not healthy or sustainable in the long term for other reasons but it’s a huge weight off my shoulders not thinking I’m ruining my wrists trying to meet a launch date.

I could never get used to mechanical keyboards either, so I've been using a Logitech UltraX Premium for ages[1] now, a laptop-style scissor-switch design that rivals my Thinkpad X220 for typing feel.

Honestly, I have no idea what will replace it when/if it finally gives up the ghost.

[1] I bought it back when USB keyboards were the hot new thing to have, back in the stone age.

Best keyboard I ever used is my current Thinkpad x220. I would need something with a better CPU tough

I'm still hanging on to my X220i with the i3, upgraded to 8GB RAM, SSD, 5GHz WLAN and a 9-cell battery. It's not a speed machine, but it's still adequate for everyday use.

I have a topre keyboard. It is the most solid keyboard I've used and love it. I bought the realforce RGB. I didn't really care about the RGB, but it's nice to turn on a solid color dimly so I can find the keyboard in the dark. It also has an adjustable actuation point, so you can make it less or more sensitive. I keep it above the point where resting fingers on the keys can set it off. I could probably tune the actuation point higher on the home keys and make all the rest lighter.

I've tried lots of other keyboards including cherry keys, and did not feel as solid. I think it's because the topre keys move up and down in a plastic cylinder that prevents side to side wiggling. I seem to type more accurately.

My previous favorite keyboard was an apple keyboard (older non-flat version) and I thought it was great. Then after getting used to the topre keyboard, I laughed - it didn't feel very good.

I also have a Topre keyboard, the Leopold FC660C, with a Hasu FC660C Controller supporting QMK firmware. The 12 keys closest to my non-pinky fingers are all tap/hold, so for example my hands don't move for control sequences. Alternate keymaps like Dvorak make sense if one needs to optimize letters for composing words. Shortening finger travel for programmers is an entirely different ball of wax, with many solutions involving QMK firmware.

I had bought or built various mechanical keyboards, before settling on Topre switches. Topre switches are an obsession killer; many people find them vastly superior to any mechanical switch, and the customization options are nonexistent. One can't post pretty pictures of one's newest keycap set; one has to focus on the QMK keymap.

Can you share your config file? I just installed my Hasu controller and I’m not sure where to start.

So I'm not alone. I really can't understand the appeal of a mechanical keyboard.

- They are loud

- They are expensive

- The keys are massive and ugly

- Massive travel time (So slow to type on)

Sure they are a bit more customizable, but is that really worth all the drawbacks? Especially the worse typing, which is the main point of a keyboard.

If you are a mechanical keyboard fanatic, and my comment angered you, please know that was not my intention. I really don't see the appeal, and I haven't been able to find any advantages (mentioned online or by asking friends that have them). I would love it if someone could explain to me what the actual advantages are, and/or why I am wrong on any of the points I mentioned.

I probably don't speak for everybody, but I can try to speak to your points above:

- They are loud

They can be loud, depending on the switches you get. However, some people feel that they benefit from it. The loud clicks are satisfying in some way. Maybe it's an ASMR thing for some people. For me, the sound feels like feedback.

- They are expensive

They can be. But so can regular keyboards. My first mechanical was like $40.

- The keys are massive and ugly

Unless you put low profile switches on your keyboard

- Massive travel time (So slow to type on)

Unless you put fast switches on your keyboard. The clickiest keys tend to be the slowest, but I don't type more than 80 words per minute anyway, and when I'm coding a lot less than that. But you can definitely get faster switches.

Here's another reason: it's fun. It's just fun. Sure maybe it's just cosplaying as a hacker, but it's still fun.

And most mechanicals can be remapped really easily, to allow custom workflows. Or layers. What I may potentially lose in words per minute, I gain by creating an intuitive key map that lets me reach the keys that I actually need day to day.

> They can be loud, depending on the switches you get.

It’s worth noting that for folks who don’t know proper typing technique (which is probably nearly everybody under the age of 40, as nobody really teaches it any more, at least in the countries where I’ve lived) it almost doesn’t matter what sort of mechanical switch you’re using, in terms of noise.

In my experience, the majority of mechanical keyboard noise for most folks doesn’t actually come from the switches at all; it comes from the keys noisily bottoming out on each keystroke.

My theory is that most folks these days learned to type on membrane keyboards where you have to bottom out the keys (often with quite a lot of force, if the keyboard is old), or else on a laptop’s scissor switches where you can’t avoid bottoming out due to the extremely short throw, and so everyone’s just typing with much more force than necessary and driving the keys all the way down to the backplate on every press because that’s what they had to do with the keyboards they learned on.

Which of course makes typing far less pleasant, and also much noisier! The complaints are totally understandable, from that perspective.

This also links into the “Massive travel time” comment; most folks push the keys much too far down while typing on mechanical keyboards!

Cherry MX Blue switches (as one example) actuate at 2mm, which is almost exactly the same distance as most (non-Apple) laptop scissor switches. The only reason that a mechanical keyboard would have “massive travel time” compared to a laptop keyboard is if you’re needlessly pushing the keys all the way down, when you actually only need a gentle tap on them.

That's the exact reason I use mechs. My finger joints started getting sore from typing, which was a career threat for me. I bought a collection of nice keyboards with Cherry browns and reds, and trained myself to type without bottoming out, and the problem went away. As a bonus, it turned out that typing that way was faster for me.

For several years, sometimes I slacked off and just typed on my Mac keyboard, and fingers would start getting sore again so I'd switch back to the mechs. Now I've apparently healed up a bit and a modest amount of laptop typing doesn't bother me, but I still bring out the mechs for more substantial work.

It is difficult to unlearn once you learn it incorrectly.

I have learned to touchtype about 80WPM in my teens, over 2 decades ago and I still have hard time not bottoming out or using right shift key.

I have been successful in re-learning to use dvorak instead of qwerty and to type in a tempo (ie. with equal intervals, using metronome), but the bottoming dynamic is much more basic than that, I think.

Agree. Older-than-40 here, I learned to type primarily on electric typewriters and old-school terminal keyboards, where the switches would trigger around half-way down the travel of the key. When I use a mechanical keyboard, I do the same- the Cherry MX Clear switches in my keyboard act in a similar way- you don't need to "bottom out" a switch for it to activate.

Manual typewriters, though, had a /huge/ amount of travel, and since the travel provides the force to strike the type on to the paper, you really had to hammer on them.

> Older-than-40 here, I learned to type primarily on electric typewriters and old-school terminal keyboards

Came here to say the same thing. But then I was stuck on keyboards that required bottoming out for many years. It's been a re-learning process to not bottom out on my fairly keychron k2. But, wow so pleasant to use.

This matches my experience as well. It’s really hard to break the habit of typing super hard.

This is partly why I really like my Zilent switches. The tactile bump is at the top of the keypress, so you can let up as soon as you're through it. Cherry tactile switches require pre-travel.

> My theory is that most folks these days learned to type on membrane keyboards where you have to bottom out the keys (often with quite a lot of force, if the keyboard is old)

I hate this. It's uncomfortable. If you aren't old enough to have used a good laptop before laptops could be thinner than two inches, you can think of modern laptop keyboards as the 21st century equivalent of a girdle. You give up a certain amount of comfort, but hey, at least you look sexy.

I guess we won't have comfortable laptop keyboards again until the electronics and battery are small enough to fit entirely under the palm rests and trackpad.

> If you aren't old enough to have used a good laptop before laptops could be thinner than two inches, you can think of modern laptop keyboards as the 21st century equivalent of a girdle

I miss old laptop input devices, wish someone still made a laptop with a built in trackball too!

I never got to try a trackball. I remember that touchpads back in the day were garbage compared to touchpads now, though. I remember the Thinkpad nub was better than any touchpad I ever had until I got my first Macbook Pro. The Apple touchpads were so amazing I assumed they would eventually figure out keyboards, too. Still waiting ten years later.

It's not too late! Thinkpads still come with a nub.

I tried to use the nub thing once since I have a Thinkpad through work. Really not to my taste.

It takes a while to get used to. The biggest value add for me with the nub is scrolling while holding the middle button. I love that.

There are plenty of trackballs available to plugin, just not anything mainstream in a laptop.

I personally would love a return to keyboards at the front edge of the laptop, with a side mounted trackball; but I doubt I'll see that.

Oh baby https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Ma...

That's pretty awesome. Although I was thinking of something more like the Microsoft Ballpoint Mouse https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=22...

https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform

> the 21st century equivalent of a girdle. You give up a certain amount of comfort, but hey, at least you look sexy.

My wife does a lot of sewing and garment making. She has convinced me that a properly designed and fitted girdle is actually a net-benefit for people. The trouble is proper fit is hard at a mass scale, which is why women transitioned to bras, which also have notorious fit issues, but are at least manageable when mass produced.

I've ordered an opti-mechanical new laptop to hopefully rediscover comfort in typing. Wish me luck)

I didn’t realise this when I started using keyboards with Cherry MX switches and bottomed out the keys. Noisy, slow, probably not great for my wrists!

I eventually realised that you’re supposed to press them gently, like you might with a camera shutter, just past the actuation point. Now I type faster, it feels better, and it’s really quiet.

> the majority of mechanical keyboard noise for most folks doesn’t actually come from the switches at all; it comes from the keys noisily bottoming out on each keystroke.

There are silicon o-rings that you can place around the stem peg of the keycap. It's like a $15 mod, takes about maybe a half-hour for a whole keyboard. It will definitely dampen the sound of the key bottoming out and will be a lot quieter and remove the blunt "shock" in your fingertips of bottoming out.

> and so everyone’s just typing with much more force than necessary

This is interesting!. I learn typing in a VERY old mechanical typewriter, then in an electronic one, then in a computer keyboard.

You need to hammer the keys in the old typewriter, like hitting with all the force in the world. But in the electronic it was so soft! Then the computers come and was like in the middle.

I made my own mechanical keyboard, and looking at it, I bottom up around the "middle", not going full force. Also, I HEAR if I hitting it too hard, so I can "lower" the sound mid-tipyng! Cool to have feedback!

I took my typing class in 1983 junior high.

There were two IBM Selectrics in the back of the room, and everything else was manual. There was a schedule for the lucky two.

I think we had more than one Apple ][ for after-school signup at that point, but I'm not sure.

I'll avoid dating myself, but let's just say I took typing class around the same time you did. Classroom had 20 IBM Selectrics. I was the only male in the class and probably the only student who wasn't in the Business/Accounting track (I was in College Prep and they couldn't figure out why I would take the class since professionals at the time had a secretary type all their correspondence). I foresaw that it was going to be a valuable skill because I was also in my school's first computer science class. None of the guys, and they were all guys, in my comp sci class could type, they were all hunt-and-peck.

So I learned the traditional way with an egg timer and a spiral-bound exercise book on a stand. Curled fingers. I still type this way, and I can still do about 170+ wpm depending on how many cups of coffee I've had.

Later, this really helped me when I got an IBM Model F keyboard or Sun UNIX keyboard and when I would fly around Vi like a keyboard assassin it would amaze my colleagues. My current keyboard is a mechanical Ducky with Cherry MX Brown switches: https://www.duckychannel.com.tw/en/Ducky-One-Golden-grey-TKL

170 is insane. I have similar history and top out at 88wpm @ https://play.typeracer.com

Practice helps, but you can probably increase your speed by learning not to bottom out the keys with every keystroke. Cherry Browns help because they have a tactile 'bump.'

> everyone’s just typing with much more force than necessary and driving the keys all the way down to the backplate on every press

After getting a mechanical with high force keys (80g) and learned to type without bottoming out I find with every key press you get a bounce back, a bit of energy that sustains typing. It's like tiptoeing on a trampoline.

One other thing I like about mechs is that you get to feel the center of the keys, as they have a small depression in the middle. this helps align hands to the buttons and reduces mistyping. Flat and crowded laptop keys bad with centering.

I did not know you could get low profile keys. That's interesting and I'll look into that. Why aren't they the default though?

But even with everything you say, I still don't see the point. You'd have to find specific switches and keys (which will probably be more difficult to find and more expensive) just to end up with something that roughly matches a rubber dome keyboard.

And yeah, I admit they look cooler overall. And they have a more "hacker" vibe to them which I can appreciate. But again I still can't think why I'd spend all that extra money/effort on something that struggles to match a normal keyboard for typing.

And yeah, when I'm coding I hardly type, I spend most of the time thinking. But I still do a lot of typing in general. Writing online comments, group IM chats, searching stuff on the internet, typing commands into a terminal. And whenever I've tried any of that on a mechanical keyboard, it just feels like my typing speed is unnecessarily slowed down. I get irritated by the latency in the same way I get irritated waiting for a website to load all it's useless extra js scripts that will have no effect on the bit of text I want to read.

- Why aren't [low profile key caps] the default though?

I can't say. I came to mechanical keyboards to get away from the crappy Apple laptop keyboards, so would never occur to me to use key caps like that.

- You'd have to find specific switches and keys (which will probably be more difficult to find and more expensive)

Have to? Or get to? Sourcing parts for your dream keyboard can be fun. At least as fun as any other hobby. At the end of the day, if you like the keyboard you're using, you're doing it right.

The one thing I will say, is that my fingers probably touch my keyboard more than any other item in my house. I'm a developer and I might spend hours straight at the computer. When you consider that, the $150 I spent on my keyboard or the $99 I spent on my trackball don't seem like so much money.

Low profile mechanical keyboards seem to be pretty slim pickings, still. https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k1-wireless-mecha... is one of the first I saw gain pretty wide popularity.

I bought the K3 from them (low profile, 75% layout) and I gave it an honest shot for a few weeks, but before long just went back to an Apple Magic Keyboard. I liked the feedback, but the travel was still longer, the keys were much louder, I wasn't a fan of the layout, and frankly, I just prefer chiclet keys. I really wanted to like it, but after that experience and working with another, more traditional mechanical for a while before it, I just cannot imagine using them for day-to-day development work.

The K3 was about as close to a replacement for the Magic Keyboard that I have found, though. It's a good keyboard and if I wasn't so used to and familiar with the Magic Keyboard, I probably would have loved it. I just think the Magic Keyboard is better for my preferences.

I'd had my eye on the K1 and now the K3, and have hesitated for the reasons you cite: at the end of the day, flattening a mechanical keyboard just feels like incompletely reverting back toward what is admittedly the superior typing experience of the Apple Magic Keyboard.

I'm actually typing this on a Keychron K2 version 1 with Gateron brown switches, and it took a few weeks of trial and error as well as a wrist pad to be able to type anywhere near the comfort and speed of what had worked for me for years (but seemed like a recipe for disaster): hunched over my laptop's built-in keyboard and display at a standing desk, no external monitor or keyboard needed or desired.

Infuriatingly, the Keychron series' spacebar is noticeably longer than on Apple keyboards. The Keychron spacebar partly overlaps X and comma, whereas Apple keyboards for as far back as I can recall are exactly aligned with the outer edges of C and M. I also miss the Fn at far lower-left of Mac keyboards.

> The Keychron spacebar partly overlaps X and comma,

This was part of my "wasn't a fan of the layout" comment. The alignment of the X and Comma with the Command key, which is a key your thumb reaches to a thousand times a day, is so much more comfortable than any other keyboard I've found. And it really created some strain for me on the K3. I also wasn't a fan of the right shift being shorter to make room for the full size arrow keys (I'd rather have a tenkeyless or, preferably, the half-height keys on Apple keyboards) or of the function key on the right.

Really, I just wanted the Apple Magic Keyboard, the 60%/65% one, with a more tactile feel to it and preferably in black. I've looked at dozens of keyboards over the last 8 months and the K3 was the closest I found. So I'm just going to stick with the Magic Keyboard.

I just bought the K2 v2 about a month ago and it's pretty great. From what I've seen, they updated the design so that it wouldn't be as flat. You can change the height of the back so it slopes better. I don't find myself needing a wrist pad.

Still getting used to it over the Magic Keyboard though.

Another option is getting speed switches like Cherry's speed silver or Kailh's Copper/Bronze/Gold. They're the same size as normal switches and support the same keycaps, but you only need to press them halfway compared to how far down you need to press other switches to activate them. Some even have a shorter activation distance than the one you linked.

Keyboards are recipes with varying proportions of ergonomics, style, DIY “hacking” ... depending on the person.

It’s an accessible hobby, requiring less time, skills and resources than drone racing or woodworking...

So you don’t “have to” spend money if it does not scratch an itch nor bring any satisfaction.

Fashion aside I love those small grid programmable keyboards. I don’t care too much about style, though my wife loves the plank ez “discokeyboard” as she says.

>Why aren't they the default though?

Historical reasons, I believe. Computer keyboards started out as typewriter keyboards modified to work with mainframes, and the typing experience was something that keyboard designers put some effort into recreating when designing things like the DisplayWriter or model f keyboards.

Personally, I hate low profile keys, but that's a matter of taste. It probably has to do with the fact that I learned to type on an IBM selectric II; still the best typing experience I've ever had, by far.

This is not strictly a feature of mechanical keyboards, and sure you can often do some limited remapping in sofware, but enthusiast keyboards tend to have a wider variety of layouts as well. IMHO everyone who uses the Ctrl key on a regular basis should try remapping Caps Lock as Ctrl for a day.

> Sure they are a bit more customizable, but is that really worth all the drawbacks?

Yes.

Or at least, "mechanical keyboards" is broad enough that it also includes ortholinear or column-staggered designs, as well as split keyboards. (i.e. I mean a more narrow "some mechanical keyboards are much better than non-mechanical" rather than arguing "mechanical keyboards are always better than non-mechanical").

Typical keyboards have staggered-rows, and are asymmetrical. (The distance from left-ctrl to index finger is different from right-ctrl to index finger). The biggest downside of this design is it encourages heavy usage of the pinky finger, as well as stretching fingers, and moving the hand from home row. Compare the number of keys relegated to the pinky finger vs the much stronger thumb.

The customizability of these keyboards affords further techniques to reduce hand movement and pinky usage.

I'm happy to take the trade-off of a slightly longer travel time for the benefit of reduced usage of the pinky finger, reduced hand movement.

These benefits are orthogonal to the switches being mechanical. Maybe it's easier to come up with these designs by making use of mechanical switches. But almost all the "ortholinear or column-staggered, split" keyboards I'm aware of are mechanical.

> These benefits are orthogonal to the switches being mechanical.

Yeah you raise some good points, but as you mentioned here it doesn't really have anything to do with the types of switches. It's just that most of these non-standard keyboards happen to be mechanical.

In my comment I am mainly talking about the pros/cons of switching to mechanical switches.

It does, a bit. If I wanted to make a rubber some keyboard, I'd have startup costs in the thousands of dollars range for molds and such. But I can make PCBs for a mechanical keyboard for only $30.

The cost of mechanical keyboard is far lower in low quantities.

There are some similar statements: "mechanical keyboards aren't much better than normal keyboards", "mechanical key switches aren't much better than normal key switches", to which "some mechanical keyboards are much nicer than standard keyboards" aims at the former.

I feel to say about "mechanical keyboard vs standard keyboard", these niche ergonomic keyboards should be considered.

I only recently discovered these weird keyboards. So I figure that's as good an excuse as any to extol these benefits. (And complain about how weird a standard keyboard is!).

Capital required to come up with a keyboard design is a much more minor factor.

Yeah, this.

My perfect keyboard would have an ErgoDox layout, QMX driver, scissor switches w. chiclet keys, and individually-addressable LEDS.

I can only get three of these four things, and I can live with that.

They are louder, that's no issue for me though. I don't mind.

Are they are expensive? I paid less for mine than an equivalent apple keyboard, for example.

I like the aesthetic, personally.

The typing on them is, for me, both faster and more accurate. Well beyond that and of far more importance for someone who uses their hands to make money, I find the long travel and mechanical resistance is much, much more comfortable and less strain inducing.

I find mechanical keyboards much nicer to type on - the keys have enough force to actively push back into position, which gives a great pressed/not-pressed response. This definitely helps when typing quickly. The key travel distance should be about the same as a membrane keyboard - activation happens at the midpoint, not the terminal point, so if you're using the full travel distance you're typing too hard.

> the keys have enough force to actively push back into position, which gives a great pressed/not-pressed response.

I'm not sure I understand this. How does a rubber dome keyboard not do this?

> The key travel distance should be about the same as a membrane keyboard

I must disagree. I've tested them side by side, and all the mechanical keyboards activate at at least twice the distance. (I've tried like 5 different ones, so not exhaustive, but still)

> activation happens at the midpoint, not the terminal point

I do know this, but it also irritates me. Why not just stop at the activation point? That should give you better feedback than trying to find the activation point somewhere in the middle.

It's so you don't bottom out. The goal is for you to press the key, it activate, and you release for the return without any jolts along the way. (Some models, like browns, have a tactile bump where the resistance changes). The "bonus" 50% travel is to avoid the shock of bottoming out and pressing against an inflexible surface.

Thanks that makes a bit more sense to me. I think maybe I should just get one and experiment a bit more. Perhaps I wasn't giving it enough of a chance.

- I often use apps that will produce extra noise on the computer (with headphones, not to annoy my workspace-sharing wife) to enhance the physical sensation of typing. Maybe this is because I'm an "older millenial" who grew up tinkering on my dad's typewriters, but it helps me feeling "settled down" and "embodied".

- Yes, but most (I'm having a bad experience with a malfunctioning 5-year-old Kinesis, but that's way too complicated a keyboard with too much electronics, programmability, etc) are simple and hardy. I've lugged a Happy Hacking inside a backpack for many many years and it's just great. It's lasted me three laptops by now.

- Judgement call, yeah.

- You don't have to press keys to the bottom. Keys that go all the way down take some getting used to, since they have an "implicit" point where they'll register, but overall travel time doesn't have to be much larger than in a thin keyboard. What makes it ergonomic is precisely that there's a lot of yielding to this point where keys will register, so your fingers aren't hitting the metal all the time.

I started using mechanical keyboards because I was trying to get into the classical guitar and had long fingernails on one hand. Except for the Kinesis, which does assume a whole postural ergonomics setting and desk space to place it, smaller keyboards like the Happy Hacking are a great add-on to a travelling laptop setup. Besides, since they're usually also USB hubs, you can switch your wireless mouse between laptops together with your keyboard.

The only thing I wish my Happy Hacking had is a wireless interface like the ubiquitous Microsoft mouses with the little dongle. But I'm not in a phase of my life when I'm spending a lot of money on new stuff.

I can't remember a single time typing speed has impacted my work, fwiw, and it's much harder to hurt your wrist with the longer travel.

> So I'm not alone. I really can't understand the appeal of a mechanical keyboard.

You feel when the key was pressed . All new keyboards that you find in stores are horrible. Pressing on their keys is like pressing on a mat. Why do i always have to look on the screen to see if the press was registered ?

While some of your points are good, and some of the quibbles with them have been addressed in other comments, I'd like to point out the big advantage to specific mechanical keyboards for me: nostalgia and muscle memory.

I grew up on the Apple Extended II keyboard and just recently bought myself a new keyboard with Alps switches. It feels like what I grew up with, it feels right to me.

I use a $20 "Made in China" Dell KB212-B. The ONLY issue I have is that I can't program some shortcut to use the arrow keys via WASD or something, since reaching for the arrow keys in code slows down my typing a LOT, especially since I use it frequently for things like ctrl + -->, ctrl + shift + -->, etc. I also use Home and End frequently to go to end of the line and alt + ^ to move lines up and down.

Other than that though, I have tried co-workers $200 keyboards and see zero difference. I guess the short keyboards are kind of cool to have your hands truly centered when using a mouse.

You should check out low-profile choc switches. Low travel time, silent and slim.

I use them together with a Kyria, best keyboard I've ever had.

It sounds to me like you have used one particular kind of mechanical keyboard. What you describe sounds a lot like either a buckling spring like the Model M or a clicky tactile switch like the Cherry MX Blue.

One of the cool things about mechanical switches is they can be built in such a way to have different characteristics. Much like how a car's suspension can be tuned to be soft or hard and with high ground clearance or low down you can build switches to be loud of quiet, clicky or soft, long or short travel.

As for why they are appealing, many people like tactile interfaces with positive feedback. In a world where everything is a touch sensitive slab of glass its nice to interface with something mechanical and responsive instead of a lifeless slate. Its the dexterous equivalent to ASMR. Its why people like manual transmissions, bolt action rifles, physical switches and knobs.

Yeah I think like anything there's a spectrum of how people perceive and react to tactile things. I'm really into all the things that feel nice in your hand. I love the weighted shift knob on my manual transmission car, my topre keyboard, the click-feel of my Intellimouse, the mechanical feeling of my various pocketknives, any heavy well-built hand tools, twiddling a nice wood pencil while I think. I'll often favor buying products that have really nice knobs or switches–I just bought a microwave that has a nice knob for setting the time instead of a flat button panel.

May I introduce you to one of my favorite niche youtube channels? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4VfzMbn28E

I just want to thank you for this discovery, I was waiting for the over analyzed description of the scroll wheel and nearly had a spit take upon hearing his review.

In an age where everyone and their mom (literally) are doing sponsored product reviews on youtube, and also as a lifelong hardware nerd, this parody really appeals to my inner soul.

> you can build switches to be loud of quiet, clicky or soft, long or short travel

I'd like to add actuation force to this list. It's one of the most important characteristics.

I prefer chiclet style keyboards when I am coding, and mechanical keyboards when I am writing. The clack of the keys acts as a sort of white noise to shut out the world and allows me to think about what I'm writing more clearly.

When I was able to write in coffee shops and the like, I didn't want to bother other patrons with a noisy keyboard, so I whipped up my own writing app that simulates loud keys via headphones, and it works almost as well as the real thing.

I'm with you on this. I recently tried out a keyboard with Cherry MX switches and was taken by surprise by how wobbly they were. I assumed they would be less wobbly than my old keyboard. It really ruined whatever tactile gain there was to be had. Sure maybe that revealed some problem with my typing technique, but I can't picture myself growing to like such a wobbly key.

Loudness is particularly annoying. I cannot do any typing (e.g. note taking) in conference calls because people complain about the noise. I always have to mute myself first.

> If you are a mechanical keyboard fanatic, my comment angered you,

My level of enthusiast is "I built my own." And not at all, everyone has their preferences.

I went with one of the loudest switches you can get (Kailh Box Jade) because the loudness of a switch is strongly correlated with the tactility of a switch. Tactility is the physical "bump" that typically aligned with the actuation point (and sound) of the switch. The theory is that bottoming out a switch can contribute to repetitive strain injury, and the tactile bump allows you acquire the muscle memory to stop before the bottom. Also, typing on the keyboard feels like cracking glass :).

There are really neat force diagrams that show the tactile bump[1].

Gamers and office workers tend to prefer linear switches, which don't have a tactile bump and are actuated by bottoming them out. The sound also arises due to bottoming them out.

> They are loud

You can alleviate 70% of this problem by choosing linear switches (typically red colored) and installing o-rings (about 30min of work). Enthusiasts go the extra mile and lubricate the switches and install a film in the switch that tightens up tolerances (this takes hours). Once you go the full mile, you end up with something like this[2].

You can't buy a keyboard with any of that done, unless you get someone to build it for you.

> The keys are massive and ugly

You can switch them out, keycaps come in all shapes and sizes, but that is definitely down to preference.

> They are expensive

Oh yes.

> Massive travel time (So slow to type on)

You do get low-profile switches, but that that gets expensive. The Logitech G915 starts at $229. Travel distance is only correlated to typing speed if you aren't used to larger travel distances. From what I've seen, the typing speed ceiling on mechanical keyboards is typically higher. In addition most people type incorrectly (myself included) and this contributes far more to typing speed than the mechanism of the keyboard.

Ultimately, keep doing what you are doing. If you like the extreme low travel of the Magic Keyboard, then that's the perfect keyboard for you. That being said, if you haven't given an appropriate mechanical keyboard a chance then you aren't making a decision with all the possible data.

[1]: https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~haata/417.embed [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2nLxvWvrJM

> - They are loud

That really depends. This one seems pretty quiet: https://youtu.be/rGM8Y6yal-8?t=337, but buckling spring keyboards are obnoxiously loud (IIRC from my childhood).

> - The keys are massive and ugly

That's only true if your preference is for laptop-style keyboards.

> - Massive travel time (So slow to type on)

IIRC, one of the main benefits of mechanical key-switches is that you don't have to bottom them out to activate them. On my keyboard, there's at least 50% more travel after the switch is activated, and the travel-to-activation doesn't seem massively different than a laptop keyboard.

Also, non-mechanical desktop-style keyboards require the most travel time of anything.

> Sure they are a bit more customizable, but is that really worth all the drawbacks? Especially the worse typing, which is the main point of a keyboard.

Honestly, I think one of the better arguments for mechanical keyboards is that most non-mechanical keyboards were designed with cost reduction as the top priority (or in the case of Apple, thinness for its own sake). I guess if you're used to that, it's fine, but gunning for cheap usually leads to quality compromises in other areas.

The most annoying things regarding mechanical keyboards is that the culture around them has weird obsessions (like stripping things down to the fewest possible keys and using stylish custom keycaps). For instance, when I was searching for a quiet keyboard video, I found this one (https://youtu.be/O3-9ttpaU0E?t=57), where they guy misses the point and thinks the cool thing about Symbolics keyboards was the keycap style, when it's really the seven modifier keys.

Type on what feels good to you. My favorite keyboards are mechanical (the Matias Mini Tactile Pro, nearly tied with a Vortex 3 using Cherry MX Clears), but my next favorite is Apple's Magic Keyboard. So much of this is ultimately subjective. The Tactile Pro key switches are absurdly loud, but the MX Clears really aren't, and I've been able to type 100+ words per minute on nearly all good keyboards -- the only ones that really throw me off are Apple's unlamented "butterfly" keyboard design and membrane-switch chiclets.

But, all I can say is "worse typing" is, well, super subjective. I type at least as well on mechanical keyboards, and I find my fingers don't get as tired when I'm using them. For what it's worth, I'm in my 50s, have been using mechanical keyboards for as much of the nearly 40 years I've been dorking with computers, and I've had very few RSI-related problems. I think I've been pretty good about ergonomics across the board, so I'm not going to ascribe that solely to keyswitches -- but I think they've definitely helped.

It’s really just what you’re used to. I grew up using mechanical keyboards and find keyboards with shorter travel times annoying because I already have the muscle meme out of hitting the keys harder.

I also quite like the clacketty sound they make but I totally get why some people would find that off putting. For me it’s as soothing as the sound of gentle rain on an autumn evening. Maybe I’m weird there but I’d wager I’m not unique.

Mechanical keyboards don’t need to be expensive either. I will grant you some people fetishise over high end keyboards but you can pick up new mechanical keyboards for the fraction of the price of those limit run models if you’re happy for something a little more mass produced (and, frankly, they work just as well).

Keyboard typing speed is always going to be dependent on what you’re used it. I bet some typists on a 1970s typewriter could run circles around the average developer on a chiclet keyboard.

Ultimately the choice of keyboard really boils down to personal preference.

Without the increase travel time I find it near impossible to not bottom out on normie keyboards. When typing at high speed it causes my fingers massive joint pain because I'm basically tapping on a surface constantly instead of getting feedback. And I used to use the Mac keyboards from ~2010 for years before a cheapo generic keyboard caused me to have those issues and I shelled out for a mechanical.

Haven't had that particular issue since, only RSI was the kinds I'd have had regardless of if I used normal keyboards or not.

Anecdote: I switched from my old ergonomic Microsoft mechanical keyboard to the Varmilo VA87M[0]. It's not ergonomic, but man, is this a great keyboard. My problem with ergonomic keyboards is how wide they are. I have to move my had too far to get to the mouse. This little keyboard, with a good palm rest, has been fantastic. The travel distance isn't anywhere near what it was on my old mechanical Microsoft keyboard, so that's much improved with more modern keyboards. Anyway, I was very skeptical of the Varmilo, since it's not ergonomic, but it's been excellent, and my wrist pain has gone away.

[0] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_lis...

I discovered in a group project once that a Model M can support a cockatiel walking on it without pressing a key. This was a timesaver.

Different strokes for different folks, though. I've been working on a mac for a decade, and I _cannot_ get used to the chicklet keyboards. I use an external keyboard and need to bring it with me when I travel in order to be productive.

I don't think it's overblown. I think it's spending $500 chasing that "perfect" typing experience and all the different switches that is overblown. I spent $50 on a basic G.Skill mechanical keyboard with Cherry Red switches and it's great. It's cheap, and best of all, it's very simple and repairable.

When I spilled a drink on it and gummed up a switch, I popped off the keycaps, took out a few screws, pulled out the board, desoldered the switch and soldered in a replacement switch. Good as new.

My favorite feature? The cord connects to the body with USB Type-C so even the cord is easily replaceable. The raised keycap design is nice too since I can just blow compressed air under all the keycaps to clean it and there's no raised edge around the faceplate to catch it.

The high rise keys are a problem. There are a variant of mech keyboards with low risk keys that I definitely prefer. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=low+profile+mechnical+keyboard

Mechanical keyboards are kind of annoying because:

1. You have to try out a few to find one you like and most of them are only available online. 2. Mechanical keyboard enthusiasts drown out casual mechanical keyboard users. Most discussions you can find focus on overly advanced topics and most manufacturers cater to the enthusiast crowd. I don't think most casual users care aren't that nitpicky about performance or aesthetic, but the customization options appeal to the enthusiast crowd I suppose.

In my experience, I like low-profile mechanical keyboards with blue or brown switches. I was happily using a keyboard I found on Amazon for $40 that's now unavailable. I ordered two more expensive ones later on and hated them.

I recently got a Keychron K3 low-profile keyboard with optical switches and enjoy it a lot. It might be worth giving that one a shot when it's available again.

Low profile mechanical keyboards are definitely gaining more attention in the market. For a lot of my friends that complained about how keys were too spaced or too high profile some keyboards marketed as "slim" or "travel size" worked a lot better.

I myself am close to buying whatever I can that has much lower travel height and switch weight (my current keyboard is lovely but can make my hands cramp after a couple hours if it's cold or after repetitive use). I'm convinced the only real metric that is worth chasing in expensive keyboards is build quality, followed by whether you like how the switches feel and the form factor.

I've said it before but I can say it again.

I tried and tried to love mechanical keyboards, but when I was gaming I settled on the Apple USB keyboard because I could button mash all day without any distress.

I now have a little cache of ones I bought from residual stock after they were discontinued. The wireless ones are not the same (for one you can't plug usb devices into it, like the Logitech receiver)

I have a mechanical keyboard and I've used them going back to the Model M and then improved Northgate versions. But I must admit that I type so much on laptops with short key travel that my mechanical keyboard takes a little adjustment.

I wish I could find an Apple Magic keyboard with all the functionality of a QMK-compatible keyboard.

For me the main factor for using mechanical keyboard is the amount of force required to press keys (Actuation Force) - its much smaller compared to cheaper membrane keyboards and it makes a huge difference if you type a lot (much less strain).

Travel Distance, distance a key needs to travel to be actuated, is sometimes within 2mm (eg. cherry mx browns). If you learn to use just enough force to type, you glide over keys. No need to bottom out.

If I ever need to type something on a standard keyboard, I feel like moving stones.

I feel that the modern Model Ms made by UNICOMP have noticeably worse "fit and finish" than some of the '80s/'90s (IBM or Lexmark) Model Ms that I own. I think it's quite simply their tool and die wearing; UNICOMP is a small company and I think they have a very limited budget to do things like produce new mold masters. This probably also hits R&D and leads to things like not having NKRO which would otherwise be expected on a keyboard of that price.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are ways in which Model Ms manufactured today are more "reproduction antique" than new keyboards.

All of that said, even the 2010s Model Ms are the sturdiest keyboards I own. Significantly better built than some Cherry switch keyboards at a similar price point (but not manufactured by Cherry). While it's frustrating that you can't more readily disassemble to the board for cleaning, this is basically the norm on "commercial" or "industrial" keyboards, which is more the space the Model M occupies than what we think of as "mechanical keyboards" today. For example, Cherry and PrehKeyTec keyboards at a $400+ price point have the exact same limitations. They're mostly sold to integrators as part of a 5-figure cost system and they're viewed as single units for replacement part purposes.

On the upside, the barrel plate design makes the Model M intrinsically easier to clean of grit and cat hair than many modern mechanical designs, which take much more careful cleaning around the exposed switches.

Which I believe was the reason for the new model M. The equipment they got from Lexmark was old, and the new model M fixes a lot of the issues.

I played with one recently, and I found the quality nice. Very much on par with my own original almost new-un-box model M.

I think early model F is far sturdier. Also the F can do NKRO which I don't think is physically possible with the M

On the contrary, I think the issues you state are overblown. I have been using a 1989 mfg IBM model M for close to 10 years now and haven't noticed any of the problems you point out. No problems with fit & finish or longevity... I use the keyboard for gaming (fps mostly) and coding and have never had a problems with KRO.

I haven't been impressed with the few other types of mechanical keyboards I've used (which I admit is not many). The key presses just don't feel as authoritative as the model m and the model m does feel like a tank.

The only knock I can give the model m is the lack of modifier keys and remapping. I use a soarers converter to remedy these problems.

That said, would I buy a unicomp repop, or a model m at current prices? No, probably not.

Same here, using an '89 Model M which I've modded to support native USB connectivity and also using QMK [0]. The ability to leverage all of the niceties of QMK (especially key remapping) combined with the feel of the Model M is what's kept it as my primary day-to-day keyboard some time now.

[0]: https://www.crackedthecode.co/how-to-supercharge-your-ibm-mo...

> Why does the Model M have essentially zero spill resistance? Because the cheap design doesn't permit spill resistance. When you spill water on an M, expect to either have it dry for weeks or months as the water evaporates from between the membranes, or to disassemble it. If it wasn't pure mountain spring water, you have to disassemble it, which--due to plastic rivets-- is a destructive proecss.

Hmm that would explain why my (Dell branded) buckling spring keyboard that i was using in the 2000s couldn't recover from a Pepsi spill.

> Go look at Model F reproductions. Those are solid keyboards.

Unfortunately the world has moved on and I want my separated inverted T arrow keys.

> New Model M Is an American-Made Keyboard

As an EU resident, when I see that I think I'll have to deal with customs if i buy one :) Not much of an incentive.

>> New Model M Is an American-Made Keyboard

> As an EU resident, when I see that I think I'll have to deal with customs if i buy one :) Not much of an incentive.

Weird nationalism play there for me as well. For some reason japanese keyboard sounds artisan(given how many limited edition keyboards their scene builds) to me and american-made keyboard just sounds like grandure posturing. Especially since there are so many expensive japanese custom keyboards and none of them market themselves as being special BECAUSE they are japanese.

That said, QMK running decent quality mechanical keyboards nowadays are a rabbit hole with so many choices and price ranges that I find both this and the System76 announcement strange.

Edit: American-Made when used as a label to say how great your product is, absolutely IS appealing to national pride. Shipping cost is hardly relevant there.

Not really nationalism in my case. Shipping to my country (EU) costs 115$, more than the keyboard itself.

Besides the shipping costs, there's also customs and VAT. So for a 100$ I'll probably end up with paying 300$. So yeah, not gonna happen, too bad Unicomp doesn't have a EU reseller.

>Unfortunately the world has moved on and I want my separated inverted T arrow keys.

They have more modern layouts including inverted T arrows. Just look at the pictures on the homepage...

> Just look at the pictures on the homepage...

Maybe after scrolling there are pictures of more modern layouts, but not before. 16:10 deskop monitor with the browser maximized.

> to me and american-made keyboard just sounds like grandure posturing

It makes me think of Razer requiring to be signed into a cloud account to configure your mouse and keyboard.

Yeah, I know they gave up on that, but only because of the backslash. That's no reason to buy from them again.

It's in the first and main image on the homepage, and if you look at the actual models, the F77 one has arrow keys.

https://imgur.com/BQmNtl4

Maybe they do A/B testing if you see a non compact one when opening the page.

While I agree that it's not very prominent: https://imgur.com/a/24ooR1L

Oh but those aren't separated, they're with the numpad. I like my huuuge keyboards with blank space. The "new" 104-key layout.

The one you're circling is still compact to me.

This entire comment reads like someone complaining that the hype is overblown on an iconic classic car because it doesn’t have power steering and the windows are manual.

Your criticism is understandable. The Model M is not as good as the Model F was, which is nowhere near as nice as the beam spring ones were. It was, indeed, a cheaper replacement to the Model F, which was, itself, a cheaper replacement to the beam spring ones.

> The Model M has no replaceable parts.

Unicomp sells a lot of replacement parts and a lot of the most common repairs can be easily done by the user. Besides that, they are really durable: I know people who use Model M's older than them.

And few keyboards will resist coffee spills.

One thing I wish it could do is backlit keys. Some people mod them, but I've never seen this done.

> Because it is much cheaper to make.

That's really true. Model F keyboards were expensive, beam-spring ones were even more and the kind of mechanical beasts you find inside IBM Selectric-based terminals and the 2260 terminals would be considered art installations more than office appliances if made today. You can get a new Model M today for less than many good mechanical keyboards with good switches and nice keycaps will cost you. And I assure you, no mechanical keyboard sounds like a Model M (or F, or beam spring, if you can pay for one).

I have a couple keyboards on my desk. The M sits beside a small "gaming" (which means "ridiculous RGB effects") mechanical one and a couple Apple ones (one wireless, one wired) all connected to different computers, which are used for different things (the Sun Type 7 is stashed away, for now, but, as cool-looking as it is, it doesn't feel that great). The gaming one will, eventually, get new sculpted/spherical keycaps because this is one area where these keyboards really shine - they are ridiculously customizable.

I think "solid" is a relative thing. People weren't comparing the M to the F, which until recently was unavailable except for second-hand units with compromise layouts and weird interfaces. They were comparing them to the value-engineered rubber dome they were selling for $14 at the Office Supply Hut.

After like 2015 or so, when firms like Ducky and Filco began to bring appealing, consumer-focused MX-switch boards to market, the M becomes just one choice among many.

There's also the more subjective angle: people like specific key feels. I like the Model M sound and feel product, probably better even than Model F (too tangy). People will put up with a lot of rubbish for a better feel.

This article is talking about the 1984 model not 1989. I don't know the difference. All of mine say "Model M © IBM Corp. 1984", including what I'm typing this message on. I have purchased and tried other new mechanical keyboards, but I always find myself returning to my IBM. The others have invariably had wobbly, sticky keys. I will keep looking since I would like to use a keyboard without the numbers pad, which I never use and which moves my trackball 6" further right.

Since I have three IBM keyboards, I think I'm covered until retirement. They will outlast me and I'll put them in my will ;)

My Model M was built in 1992, but still looks and feels brand-new.

Yeah I've been using the same 1994 Model M (M13 -- all black with a built in trackpoint) since... about 1995. Besides some dust build-up and me not having replaced the trackpoint nib and it being worn down it's still in mint condition.

Sure, they _could_ be built more solidly but I'm going to take a wild guess that 25 years is well beyond the lifetime a typical keyboard would be engineered for so it's probably still/already overbuilt.

Never had an issue with loosely fitting parts, spills or breaking rivets, and I had mine for 20 years, after it had been in an office for 10, and now it's gone on to a new delighted owner (I'm using a smaller board now).

Not seeing the longevity issues there really, and the springs have a lovely feel.

(The F77 from your link looks great, but that pricetag!)

Never understood all of the hype that the Model M got. It was made purely as a cost reduction to the Model F and it got "worse" in almost every way. I can't stand typing on a Model M. The Model F is where it's at and IMO deserves the praise and obsession that the M receives.

A Model M weighs 2.2 kg. Heavy things must be high quality.

“Weight, is sign of reliability. If it does not work, you can always throw it at him.” - Boris the Blade

How can you use vim without the escape key? These model F reproductions lack that.

Ctrl [

I think you can hit Fn-backquote.

You can also order either of two HHKB-style layouts, where the backquote key is replaced by Esc (among other changes).

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