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Comment by matwood | Hacker News Reader

EO is great and has really changed how I interact with people.

> Obviously things aren't entirely your fault all the time

I prefer using the word 'control' over fault, because fault has so many negative connotations. Things are not entirely in your control all the time, but many times they are. How a person responds to situation is always in their control. The classic one which you refer to is blaming others when a failure occurs - communication or otherwise. And yes, it is completely empowering and changes how one acts as a leader or team member.

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Please be careful about the downsides of EO, which can be seen in the author's complicated legacy within the SEALS. The culture this produced when taken too far can be seen in the Ed Gallagher problem[0]. When things are decentralized, you have to make sure you can trust your people. When you can't, you end up with Gallagher, or LAPD Rampart scandal.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/us/navy-seals-edward-gall...

If you can't trust your people, then you have a big problem no matter what management style you use. I would argue EO has nothing to to do with it. In fact, if EO had been followed in this case, the subordinate operators would have put a stop to a crazy officer. What's described in that article is the opposite of subordinates being empowered.

Also, AFAIK, Jocko have never addressed the issue you linked. It might be because he simply doesn't know enough to comment. He left the military in 2010 and this incident happened in 2017. Do you have anything to attach him or EO directly to it?

The author wrote follow-up book called The Dichotomy of Leadership specifically to address the problem of people taking EO too far in one direction. But like my sibling comment mentions, I don't think you should blame the Gallagher problem on EO without clear evidence connecting the two. And even if you do, the follow-up book is there to clarify.

Not to sound like a Jocko fanboy because I think he does have his faults like anyone, but he addresses similar situations in his podcast while reviewing books like The Rape of Nanking, No Ordinary Men, and talking about the My Lai massacre. In all of those situations, EO would would have led the soldiers involved to question leadership and put a stop to what was happening. Giving up control and just 'following orders' was what in part, led to these horrific acts.

> I prefer using the word 'control' over fault, because fault has so many negative connotations.

Excellent point. I completely agree. I'll have to keep that in mind in the future.

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