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Comment by sub7 | Hacker News Reader

Here's a better guide: stay far away from this ponzi pseudo asset because it's just a giant game of "I can get out before you" and a few insiders control the exits/have more information than you so you can't win.

Edit: Another sure tell of a scam is when proponents get really triggered by negative chat. If you really believe you're holding something great, you don't care about other opinions. In fact, you want to keep buying more and leave less for the rest.

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Even better guide: just buy a small amount of bitcoin so if it 10x in value you 10x your money, and if it doesn't then you don't lose much

Or the Ultimate guide: educate yourself on what is money, where it does come from, what is the best store of value and then decide for yourself.

Funny how the conclusion is always "just buy bitcoin".

When the conclusion is fixed, you'll get bad faith arguments.

How is that different than stock/commodities/forex markets?

There's a lot of breezy hype and people trying to make fortunes from unloading their bets to retail traders in those too, but they are at least trading in actual means of production and tokens used by entire economies as their only legal tender

Now, what about gold?

A lot more hype, a lot more FUD about everything that isn't gold, a lot more "now is a good time to buy gold". But at least you can mark its inflated price up by turning it into something many cultures find useful or pretty. :)

Gold exists regardless of if you mine it or not.

And yet people mine it. And it follows the "I can get out before you" game the OP describes.

I think the opposite is true about your last remark. Those few who don't believe in Bitcoin seem to be in a panic mode, jumping in on every Bitcoin thread to get their comments in.

If you don't believe in Bitcoin, you don't have to try to manipulate other people by making obviously false statements and weak arguments against it. Bitcoin is free system, you don't have to participate. No one cares.

So what's the intrinsic value of these paper things you call dollars?

Those paper things endorsed by a government, with armed forces, a central bank, and a whole legal system with another armed enforcement department, and ability to pass laws, and raise taxes and pay employees in that same paper; those mere paper things?

They are claims on taxes.

How did this help Venezuela keep the value of their currency? Bolivars are also claims on taxes.

The Bolivars being introduced into circulation over a period exceed the number of Bolivars needed to settle debts and taxes over a period, and the excess of Bolivars in the system resulted in people being able to obtain Bolivars they needed to settle these obligations by doing less work or supplying fewer goods.

Competently run central banks, unlike incompetently run central banks or crypto mining algorithms, intervene to reduce the money in circulation when its purchasing power falls faster than they're comfortable with.

Are you saying this has helped people in Venezuela?

Not unless they had significant debts or tax bills denominated in increasingly worthless Bolivar, or the newly printed Bolivar were being funnelled to them, no.

(Obviously debtors did not continue to be helped either, as businesses and lenders adjusted repayment terms accordingly, including a strong preference for receiving USD in untaxed offshore accounts, or just gave up altogether after incompetent monetary policy had ruined them.)

Very specific example there. Central banks can mismanage currencies, especially when the top government is bad. Film at 11. This doesn't make state currencies inherently bad or wrong. Might as well argue that the fire service is bad idea because that one time it didn't put out a fire.

how did bitcoin help Venezuela?

It helped and is helping people escape oppressive regime in Venezuela. Your snarky question comes from the place privilege as you've never experience this kind of oppression.

More info: https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-adoption-venezuela-research

> from the place privilege as you've never experience this kind of oppression.

I can't tell if this is bad satire or real bad faith, but my family actually escaped the fascist regime and the nazi invasion and it's a miracle I am alive, I'm much older than you think...

but "check your privilege" rhetorical aside, how is bitcoin helping Venezuela people to escape the oppressive regime?

Venezuela hyperinflation has political roots, there's history of crashing south american economies as the most popular ways to dethrone the elected government without military intervention to install regimes. If the country can adopt bitcoins it's because the government allowed them (Venezuela bank stashed a lot of cryptos), IMO it's pretty weird that an oppressive government would allow something that goes against their interest...

> privilege as you've never experience this kind of oppression.

it is weird to see how the cryptocurrency nerds, with their massively polluting, "I got mine" high-tech get rich quick schemes, grab ahold of the mantle of champion of the oppressed and poverty-stricken.

It's disgusting, phony and hypocritical. It's either acting in bad faith or delusion - I can't tell which, perhaps they blend into each other.

So much projection. Astonishing.

What's discussing is handwaving real-world problems because they don't fit your agenda.

Thinking that poor people need your horribly polluting bitcoins is the epitome of not understanding the real world's problems.

Calling this projection is insulting, and IMHO very much projection itself. bad faith, deluded, or both.

And debt. Every dollar "printed" is owed by at least one other entity to a third party

2013 called it wants its comments back..

As a comment, it is still relevant.

>few insiders control the exits/have more information than you so you can't win

Please elaborate on this conspiracy theory.

Sorry, I'm undergoing unscheduled maintenance so I cannot process this request

I agree that there is no intrinsic value here, but it's a " ponzi scheme" that has been going on for 12 years now, and there are no signs of this stopping. I think we can safely stop calling it a ponzi scheme. Otherwise, by the same logic, other assets would also have to be labelled a ponzi scheme.

Ponzi schemes can go on for much longer than 12 years. Madoff said that he began the Ponzi scheme in the early 1990s, but federal investigators believe that the fraud began as early as the mid-1980s[18] and may have begun as far back as the 1970s.. He was caught by confession in 2008.

Over approx. 20 years, Lewis collected around $311 million U.S. dollars from investors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Paul_Lewis_Jr%2E

In another ~20 years we can stop calling Bitcoin a Ponzi Scheme, but speculative investment can fuel exponential growth for much longer than you might think.

> it's a " ponzi scheme" that has been going on for 12 years now, and there are no signs of this stopping. I think we can safely stop calling it a ponzi scheme

Not saying that calling Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme is particularly insightful, but if I believe Wikipedia, Madoff's Ponzi scheme had been going on for more than that when it was brought to a halt.

To describe Bitcoin as a ponzi, you must apply a very loose definition, which will necessarily be applicable to other assets as well. More on this: https://www.swanbitcoin.com/why-bitcoin-is-not-a-ponzi-schem...

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