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I have a Model 3 that is less than 2 years old. The build quality is terrible.

The side of my Model 3 trim on the inside just fell off for no goddamn reason. I don't even know how to fix it, it looks like the glue wasn't applied properly? This is on top of countless other problems that I've faced over the last 2 years.

It's impossible that Tesla is 3X the market cap of Toyota Why they didn't stop buying of Tesla the same way they stopped GME is criminal.

And they keep failing external quality tests and no one seems to care:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/teslas-failed-every-edmunds-e...

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Frankly people give Tesla a pass for things that would be unacceptable from any other automaker. The reality is that I don't see Tesla coming anywhere close to the build quality of established high end brands anytime soon.

You compare eg; a Mercedes or Porsche interior with a comparably priced Model S and it's no contest.

What will happen first:

A) Traditional automakers becoming good at making great EVs

B) Tesla matching the quality standards of traditional automakers.

The traditional automakers are quickly learning how to make great EVs. Tesla may get away with substandard quality for now, but they won't get away with it a decade from now when ever automaker is producing decent EVs. I hope Tesla improves fast.

Cars are becoming like phones so the model that dominates phones might be the best for cars. Tesla probably knows tbis but putting engineering excellence first can sometimes compress margins.

Absolutely. My 2017 Audi A4 is a far nicer, higher quality build than the last (similar era) Model S that I was in. And it's not even close.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/9/22274376/audi-etron-gt-rs-...

I posted this the other day. I think most people agree the Germans make better interiors. But nobody can deny Tesla has a superior charging network, and for the vast majority of people their battery technology is superior (longer ranger, but more prone to overheating from aggressive driving).

I think Tesla is just riding the underdog wave extremely well - they're new, they're different, they're trendy, and they're eco-friendly. And honestly, if you're not a car person, their cars are fun and different (if you are an enthusiast you will likely have very mixed opinions of Tesla). Combine that with a CEO that can bend the laws of reality while he talks, promises for full self-driving which will absolutely never ever materialize, the fact that the competition is really quite slow to show up...and you get a ridiculous stock price.

I don't think Tesla is going away, but I think in 10 years they're going to be just another car company, especially if they shift their focus towards energy which is where the real money is for them.

Tesla reminds me of Saturn, a car company that rode a wave of an enthusiastic buyers until people started to notice their quality declining after significant cost-cutting.

Unlike Saturn, GM isn't meddling in Tesla's management, but it seems like similar mistakes are being made.

At least Tesla's are more fun to drive.

How are Teslas eco-friendly? I had to get a lower panel near the bottom of the door replaced, and they literally had to take apart the entire car. Literally my backseats and front seat were taken out just to get to this piece.

Teslas are about as eco friendly to repair as iPhones, which is not friendly at all.

“and they're eco-friendly.”

They certainly have that image, but I think an eco-friendly electric car would have to be smaller and lighter, even if that means decreasing range.

Going for a long range makes their cars unnecessarily heavy. That makes them require more power and increases tire and road wear.

I also think the competition is timing its entry quite well, arriving close to the moment when it becomes possible to make money making electric cars.

> Going for a long range makes their cars unnecessarily heavy. That makes them require more power and increases tire and road wear.

To be honest I don't think they are unnecessarily heavy for evs. Base model 3 is a bit over 1600 kg, while a base audi a4 weighs a bit over 1500 kg. Performance model 3 weighs about 1850 kg while and an audi rs4 weighs 1790 kg. Meanwhile the polestar 2, an ev comparable to a mid spec model 3, weighs almost 2200 kg.

Their energy efficiency numbers are similarly good and almost across the board better than competition evs.

Edit: I might just add that the weight argument has a bit more strength re the model s and x. Even if they're comparable to other evs, they are a decent bit heavier than comparable ICE cars. I think that's a result of the older platform -- I suspect a lot of work must have gone into model 3 to reduce weight.

I see weight not being as big of an issue. Obviously you can't go crazy nuts with weight but aerodynamics is the main factor.

Pushing air out of the way continuously is a real drain on energy.

Mass and acceleration are what causes road and tire wear. You can be 100% energy neutral and still not be truly eco-friendly.

https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-...: “Pollution from tyre wear can be 1,000 times worse than what comes out of a car’s exhaust”

> But nobody can deny Tesla has a superior charging network

It isn't the future. There's more investment from more companies going into CCS networks. For example:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/shell-pledg...

Not on their US VWs they didn't.

I have a recollection that people used to say similar things about Ferrari, especially among people who were not Ferrari fans or were former Ferrari fans. Hand built, often in need of some rework.

I wonder if there's any way to tell if the build quality is going up with their increased volume, down, or remaining even.

Ferrari came from racing and were basically just slapping passenger car amenities into performance chassis wherever they fit.

Hyundai/Kia are probably a better point of comparison.

For what it's worth, my Model 3 from December 2018 with 35K miles on it has only had one issue (with squeaking upper control arms) and they replaced it under warranty, coordinated through the mobile app. I haven't had any other issues that would indicate build quality is terrible.

Same here - I have a 2018 model 3 and its gone in once to get a warning for the seat belt fixed. Its got 45k miles and had no other issues. Best car I've owned.

The best car I ever owned is my current car, a 16 year old Audi that had many prior owners and has nearly 300.000km on the teller. Its never given me trouble and anything you run into you can fix yourself with volkswagen parts. The build quality comes into play sooner than later.

Ah that's good to hear. I have heard some model years of Audi were notorious for reliability, maybe coinciding with the dips in VWAG quality in general, but they are one of the few makers of station wagons selling them in the US anymore and I might seriously consider an A4 or A6 wagon...

I think maybe a lot of their bad rep came from the all road "Air suspension" era...although the simple fix was to install regular shocks/springs.

My other vehicle is a 60s Royal Enfield, which operates at the other end of the reliability spectrum.

Agree, Mine is a Model 3 from May 2018 with 22k. I've only had a couple of small issues, (Infotainment computer would fail to wake back up often and a bad switch on break pedal meant to register a foot but no press) both fixed with no issues. Judging by the serial number on my included diecast mine was close to one of the first 12k produced.

I also have a Model 3 from December 2018. No issues / defects at all.

I have had mobile service for things like rotating tires and installing a rear spoiler.

Better "initial quality" experience than the VW and Subaru vehicles that I've purchased.

I just recently got a Chevy Bolt. 240 mile range for 1/2 of the cheapest Model 3 (used, paid in cash). It has the typical GM fit-and-finish, nowhere near what I'd demand out of a car with an MSRP at ~$43k with the trim level I have. GM took so many shortcuts with materials and design choices in what I assume was an attempt to not take a loss on each Bolt sold. Aside from a pretty nice big infotainment screen, it lacks the features, fit, and finish that I'd demand from a $20k car. I still love it, very peppy electric motor, drives well, plenty of space for a baby seat and passengers, decent cargo room.

It's still a bargain GM car at luxury prices, you'd be nuts to pay full MSRP for this vehicle. I got a great deal on a used one; tons of great deals were to be had on cars coming off of the first batch of 3-year leases until the battery recall put a stop-sale on everything at GM dealerships.

I know they don't stack up good against other brands comparing MSRP to MSRP, but I have to wonder how bad Tesla's "initial quality" really compares against all of the electric options out now.

I think the Bolt is one of the better car choices we've made in a while. But we didn't buy it, we leased one last year. $6K for 3 years at 18K miles/year, residual is in the mid-20s, which is what I could have bought one for brand new with all the discounts they had running. For the first 5K miles it's been really great, better than I expected, really. If it's still this good in a few years, maybe I'll buy it when the lease ends. But only if I can pay something close to the auction value and not the stated residual value :)

It’s a great car

> 240 mile range for 1/2 of the cheapest Model 3 (used, paid in cash).

Do you get near the 240-mile rated range? I ask because...

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-cons...

2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance: 256 miles under test. 310 miles EPA-estimated.

It seems like some EPA EV ranges are not very realistic.

--------

Edmunds tested 277 miles on the 2020 Chevy Bolt. But I'm interested in hearing your personal experience.

Right now with the cold, the car is telling me ~150 miles. But this is during below-freezing temperatures in the midwest, and I've only had it for a few weeks. My commute is ~3.5 miles, around town trips of no more than 10 miles round-trip, and I don't typically precondition before my drives.

From what I've read, the 240 mile estimate is pretty accurate - some more spirited driving will obviously have you fall short of that number, and some users have reported getting more than 240 miles.

I have a 2020 Bolt, and a 2019 Model 3 Performance. In my experience the Bolt's range prediction is dead on. The Tesla overestimates by a lot. So much, in fact, that I just switched the range display to battery percentage.

That test is 60% city. On the highway at 75 mph, the Bolt would likely drop to 200 or a little below. The Model Y LR AWD does ~240 under similar conditions.

Yep - Augusta to Atlanta (Lithonia Supercharger) is also brutal going 75mph and up 400ft in elevation, and there's no supercharger in between the two cities. A 3 SR+ RWD will average maybe 150 miles of range along that route.

Yeah, that'd be cutting it pretty close. I'd be tempted to bring a CHAdeMO in case it looked risky mid-route. I bet there's at least one CHAdeMO along the route.

That Edmunds test is flawed in so many ways.

Not only they fudged the numbers:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-tsla-the-inves...

There was also a fatal flaw. They did not perform the testing under the same conditions. They tested the Teslas with temps being 10F (~60F) colder and using the cabin heat.

https://twitter.com/AEONde/status/1359599422733172736?s=20

While other being tested under ~70+F with no heater used. Any EV owner knows that will significantly affect range. I guess they don't really care about being an authoritative source.

Other offenses: https://twitter.com/enn_nafnlaus/status/1331154577387905024?...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/best-cars/electric-cars-b...

Its not just Edmunds who are reporting lower range than expected. Also autocar (of UK) reports lower Tesla range.

> In our tests, the Model 3 Performance achieved 239 miles of real-world driving.

> Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, 181 miles

> (The Model S) is now available in a choice of different battery capacities, with the current entry-level 75kWh model managing 204 miles of real-world range

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All tests have their flaws. But real-world testing by 3rd parties is far more reliable than the government-mandated tests.

Its like they say: any official benchmark will be cheated, gamed, etc. etc. You really only figure out who can beat the test, as opposed to figuring out reality. A series of trusted 3rd party tests (by magazines and smaller communities) is small and unique enough that no major automaker can really "gamify" the tests, leading to more realistic results in the aggregate.

The issue is that Edmunds fudged the numbers. Twice! Therefore, it's a hard sell calling them a "trusted 3rd party" as I mentioned here:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-tsla-the-inves...

https://twitter.com/enn_nafnlaus/status/1331154577387905024?...

Your Autocar link did not even give any data on their testing methodology. It's even more vague than Edmunds. What were the conditions? These things matter to an informed consumer who value objectivity. I hope you're not implying that one should just blindly trust that article.

Speaking of 3rd party tests. A realtime one conducted on the same day, like this one has more merit.

https://youtu.be/ZH7V2tU3iFc?t=1535

https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3

Car and Driver only got 200 highway miles on their Model 3

There's plenty of 3rd party review sites. They're all coming in lower than the EPA-estimated-range.

-------

Carwow, the Youtube-site you linked to, has its article here: https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/ultimate-electric-car-range-te...

Percentage of claimed range achieved: 78% for the Tesla Model 3

In any case: my point stands. We can't trust the EPA-ranges / government mandated range tests. They seem to be getting gamed.

> Car and Driver only got 200 highway miles on their Model 3

That's only highway miles... EPA, WLTP and NEDC efficiency tests are highway and city driving. They are standardized to control as much variables as possible. Which is fundamentally essential to anyone who understands the scientific method.

> Percentage of claimed range achieved: 78% for the Tesla Model 3

Same with the other cars on the lineup. The only one that was a clear winner was the Hyundai Kona, at the expense of lackluster performance and driving dynamics.

Nissan Leaf: 87%. Volkswagen e-Up 102%. Renault Zoe 96%. Etc. etc.

78% is on the low-end of what carwow tested.

Kia e-Niro 255 282 90%

Nissan Leaf 208 239 87%

Audi e-tron 206 255 81%

Tesla Model 3 270 348 78%

Jaguar I-PACE 223 292 76%

Mercedes EQC 194 259 75%

Peugeot e-208 162 217 74%

Actually 76%~ and below. So mid, not low-end. The Volkswagen e-Up and Renault Zoe were not tested on the same day. So temps will vary. Standardized testing is very important. Which is why it's the methodology used by government agencies. It's not perfect, but it's the most scientific.

It's interesting how some are lambasting the EPA but would cite 3rd party tests that don't even try to minimize the effects of variables. Therefore completely skewing the reliability of the results.

They are completely non-controlled with non-standardized conditions. With Edmunds being the biggest offender. Even at one point charged the Taycan to 100%, but the Model Y to only 90% on a "range" test. How can someone defend that?

The Chevy bolt is a much better car than a Tesla don’t start propagandizing against it here. Mine has never required any service of any kind and there are absolutely zero fit and finish issues. It is nit a luxury car but there is a lot of virtue in just being and excellent car without luxury

> It's impossible that Tesla is 3X the market cap of Toyota Why they didn't stop buying of Tesla the same way they stopped GME is criminal.

...what?

- GME trading wasn't halted. some high profile platforms like robinhood went literally insolvent and had to put a stop to some volatile stock trades and borrow billions in cash to stay legal. other well-capitalized platforms never restricted GME.

- related to above, GME wasn't halted on some platforms because of some market-cap vs actual value mismatch. this is not a thing.

- as for the market cap, well... prevailing wisdom is we're in some kind of bubble. something bad will happen eventually.

>It's impossible that Tesla is 3X the market cap of Toyota Why they didn't stop buying of Tesla the same way they stopped GME is criminal.

GME wasn't stopped because it was too overpriced. A few brokerages stopped accepting new GME positions because they couldn't afford the deposit requirements. That's it. If you went with another broker (eg. fidelity), you could buy all the GME you want.

> no one seems to care

Shareholders only care about increasing the volume of cars rolling off the assembly line.

Tesla was on my short list of next car purchases... but now that the old guard are getting fully into the game it's very unlikely (unless Tesla is able to pull a Jaguar like quality rebound or they actually deliver on "full" self driving).

I don't have a Tesla, but I had upholstery on the backs of the rear seats (the part that becomes the floor of the hatchback when you fold them down) all off on my Ford C-Max. It looks like an adhesive failure there.

Not making excuses for the big T, just saying that there's a lot places for things to work out poorly in automotive.

  > I had upholstery on the backs of the rear seats (the part that
  > becomes the floor of the hatchback when you fold them down) all
  > off on my Ford C-Max. It looks like an adhesive failure there.

The wife's Focus has the same issue.

Pretty much all GMs in the 80s had problem with summer heat eventually separating the headliner cloth from the padding.

The foam padding breaks down and even though the glue holds, there's nothing for it to hold the cloth to but dust.

Can't agree enough.

I'm not wealthy, but, got enough to be happy... I really wanted to treat myself to a Tesla and went to the local shop a while ago and I went out thinking - I'm not buying this.

The glovebox required such force to close. I put my arm on the armrest and the rear drinks holder opened The centre console was VERY loose.

and so many other problems.

Compare this to a family member's ~£13k Hyundai i10 where the gear selector was SOLID, I just didn't feel like the Tesla (Model S) was good value for money in the slightest.

I don't think anyone can touch them technically (yet), but, they have A LOT to learn about building cars.

I kind of wonder - how much of the valuation is actually in cars/car sales vs. the charger/battery infrastructure and expertise that they are building?

The valuation is entirely in Full Self Driving and Memes.

Disclaimer: I work for a Tesla competitor.

I mean, they got your money... and people are still falling all over themselves to give Tesla their money... their stock price has gone extremely high... so I guess I wonder how much of a problem this really is for them. Doesn't seem to affect their brand, even if one thinks it should.

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