Comment by OJFord | Hacker News Reader

Comment by OJFord | Hacker News Reader

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> The problem is getting consumers to their retail websites. At the moment, anyone trying to buy N95 masks on Google Shopping or Facebook Marketplace is greeted with a blank page; on Amazon, a search for N95s yields a welter of vendors hawking KN95 masks, a Chinese-made equivalent that researchers say is less effective.

> “How is it that you can spread conspiracy theories on Facebook, but we can’t sell N95 masks to the millions of Americans who need them right now?” Mr. Brown asked. “I can understand Facebook not wanting to sell masks made by some guy in his garage, but these masks meet strict N.I.O.S.H. guidelines.”

I can more understand the first half of the article, about ingrained purchasing processes in hospitals etc. leaving newcomers with unbought supply, but this is nuts. All the crap that Amazon does show if you search 'mask' or 'respirator' over the last year, and they refuse to list genuine stuff?

I still have a disposable FFP3 (UK/EU N99 equivalent I believe) from a couple of years before the pandemic, it was £1.12ea or much less in packs. Currently I'd have to pay 10x that for a shitty piece of ill-fitting cloth. (It's probably technically past its shelf life, but it can't be worse than fabric that never met any filtration specification.)

> welter of vendors hawking KN95 masks, a Chinese-made equivalent that researchers say is less effective.

Citation? Ther actual written standards of N95 vs KN95 are very similar, and if anything KN95 is probably slightly better. To meet KN95, the mask must be shown not to let air pass around the edges even while doing vigorous exercise, whereas N95 has no such requirement.

This is notable in the shape of N95 and KN95 masks. Some N95 masks look like someone just hit the "circle" button in some CAD software, whereas KN95 masks clearly have effort to actually being human-shaped.

I think the problem is more about buying masks from sellers on Aliexpress with KN95 printed on it which may or may not have actually been tested to meet those requirements. These are the same items that independent sellers on Amazon will end up selling. I'm sure the same happens with some N95/FFP2 masks but from my anecdotal experience this seems to be less common.

As the downvoted comment explains, there's good quality masks coming out of China and there's tons of questionable quality masks. Differentiating between the two is difficult if not impossible.

Personally I am using some Chinese made masks every now and then from a reasonably well known company, but they are CE certified FFP2 masks. Still prefer big brands when I can get them though, but they're still ridiculously expensive.

I'm sure you're aware -- but I was very surprised to find out -- that the European CE certification mark was _quite_ so similar to the younger China Export Mark: https://www.ybw.com/vhf-marine-radio-guide/warning-dont-get-...

Also note that it’s an urban myth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking#China_Export

Anecdata: I saw an incorrect CE mark (presumably China Export) a couple of weeks after learning about it (Dec 2020).

The citation's from 12 years ago and may no longer be accurate.

They even mention CE compliant products not adhering to the logo’s formal specification. There is literally nothing that makes it "presumably China Export".

Ha! Every day's a school day ...

Then they might as well use the real logo as the CE mark for medical equipments also has to include the standard tested for, and the lab which did the certification (for Chinese masks that’s 99% a lab in Turkey)

What's up with Turkey? Recently bought German made masks and they were CE certified by a Turkish company/organisation.

Which one was it? The common one is Universal Certification and Surveillance Services Trade Co. [0]

What I’ve heard, is that almost all the European labs had crazy backlogs for certification of PPE and the Turkish one was the only one with capacity.

[0] www.universalcert.com

CE, as far as I can tell, is self certified. Meaning that any company can simply register in the EU and slap the logo on their product. Otherwise, in the US, the same thing happens with FDA registration. Mask companies claim FDA approval when they mean that they simply have registered their product. Registration does not imply approval or certification, its means that the company declares its selling goods of a certain type. I’ve had the issue of mask sellers even provide bogus registration information for unrelated product categories.

Unfortunately, most masks that say they meet the KN95 standard simply don't [0]. Whilst there was an uptick in non-compliant masks after the pandemic, ECRI's findings for previous time periods were about half of batches tested were faulty.

[0] https://assets.ecri.org/PDF/COVID-19-Resource-Center/COVID-N...

> Citation? Ther actual written standards of N95 vs KN95 are very similar, and if anything KN95 is probably slightly better. To meet KN95, the mask must be shown not to let air pass around the edges even while doing vigorous exercise, whereas N95 has no such requirement.

In my experience, actual KN95s have extensive leakage, especially around the nose. One factor may be that Western faces and Asian faces are different, and my understanding is that the KN95 standard and masks are tailored to Asian facial structures.

For instance, this is an assessment of a KN95 style mask I actually bought at a Menard's clearance a few months ago. It definitely has fit problems around my nose.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/respirators/testing/results/...

> While the above-listed product classification has similar performance requirements to NIOSH-approved devices, NIOSH does not have knowledge about the sustained manufacturer quality system and product quality control for these products. NIOSH also does not have knowledge about the product’s handling and exposures after leaving its manufacturer’s control.

> In addition, this product is an ear loop design. Currently, there are no NIOSH-approved products with ear loops; NIOSH-approved N95s have head bands. Furthermore,limited assessment of ear loop designs, indicate difficulty achieving a proper fit. While filter efficiency shows how well the filter media performs, users mustensure a proper fit is achieved.

I have 3 different brands of what are claimed to be KN95 masks. All do not fit in different ways. All use plastic nose bends, ear loops and either air comes out sides, chin, or nose area. I have 3M trifold N95s from before the pandemic and those fit perfectly without significant effort. The nose area uses metal and dense foam to ensure seal. I think the main seal issue with KN95s is that they are thin, flimsy and are missing some basic features like the foam, metal nose piece and head band.

I don't know, I didn't look into it - note I quoted that from the OP.

Yeah, but the Chinese masks likely overwhelmingly wont meet the standard.

The first batch might...

It might just be me, but even if Google and Facebook were happy to advertise their masks I'd assume they were fake/bad quality if they were being advertised on those platforms - in the same way that Amazon clearly are selling rubbish. Not sure what the solution to that is though.

maybe Google, FB, Amazon are victims of their own 'successful ML algorithms' or some sellers that are gaming the advertisement system?

We should remember that the certification processes for medical stuff are very long and extensive, yet even so a mask that allows 5% of air to leak round the edge of the mask will pass the certification!

Given that, I have no issues with using a fake mask. My manual fitting effort to reduce leakage around the mask will have far far more impact on health outcomes than the exact specifications of the way the ear straps go as required by high grade medical certifications...

It's time we de-emphasized product certifications and paperwork in favor of simply getting more products that mostly work into the hands of more people. Per dollar spent, far more people will have improved lives.

What assurance would you have that a product "mostly works" other than a certification by professionals? If we rely on common sense, we might as well all drink bleach.

Policies written with a more holistic view would say "lets spot check these masks, and for masks we find that is sub-par we will fine the importer some smallish amount that approximates the economic effect of the deficiency".

For example, if the standard says "must reduce particulates by 95%", yet the mask reduces particulates by 94%, then it might be reasonable to fine the importer (6-5)/5 = 20% of the value of the goods.

The key is to try to encourage all products to be as good as possible, without introducing months of delay and tens of thousands of dollars of paperwork for every product.

Huh, FFP2 masks are now available for 1-2 EUR here, individually packaged, and less in packs. They're sold everywhere, from discount supermarkets to pharmacies (where they're a bit more expensive). Of course, prices were much higher a couple of months ago.

Consider yourself lucky. In a certain northern Germany city, they went for 5-7€ per piece. After the OP / FFP2 mask mandate at the end of January, they went down to ~4€. I found ONE pharmacy that was selling packs, so I got them for around 3€ (18€ 6-pack).

You could also buy them cheap on Amazon with no CE labeling or with fake labeling, if you are feeling adventurous.

Oh, maybe they are here (UK) too then, I haven't been to an actual shop for.. over a year now. I was talking just about Amazon UK, where it was once easy to get FFP2 & FFP3 disposables and non-disposable filters in the DIY section, (I bought them for sanding/plastering/messing about with fibrous insulation) and now it's all shitty AliExpress-style spam.

Amazon.de was sold-out around February-March 2020 and never really recovered. Currently there's only third party sellers which sell FFP2 masks in there.

But masks are widely available in pharmacies and specialized stores. I'd try to find a store selling occupational safety items if I were you.

FFP2 masks are everywhere in Germany, even my local Döner Shop sells them and every supermarket has brand ones either as single or pack of ten. I didn't buy the last pack from amazon but direct from the company (medisana) because amazon afaik throws all (counterfeits or originals) in the same bins and you can't be sure what you get.

Where is that? In Austria they're in abundance at every supermarket for 59 cents.

In Czechia we got KN95s for like 35 cents. Altough proper FFP2s are for atleast 1.5 euros.

Germany. I wouldn't be surprised to find them for <1 EUR here, too, I was being a bit conservative in my estimate.

You can buy FFP3 masks for 5-10 quid each (depends on exact model) in UK from specialized PPE stores, like:

https://www.protectivemasksdirect.co.uk/

This is a legit store with legit masks, it existed before the pandemic.

In general, if someone is looking for FFP2/FFP3/N95 masks, search for personal protection equipment stores in your country, not Amazon/eBay/...

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