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Comment by peteretep | Hacker News Reader

Genuine question: how much does this matter if much of it is renewables and cheap hydro? I feel like the negative externalities of using a lot of electricity are very very tied to where that electricity came from

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According to their mining map[1], 35% of the global hashrate happens in Xinjiang. From Wikipedia, it looks like most major power stations in Xinjiang are coal driven[2].

10% is in Sichuan, which appears to be largely hydro-driven[3].

1: https://cbeci.org/mining_map

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_i...

3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_i...

It seems [0] that roughly 40% of crypto mining uses renewables. Yesterday I wrote a lengthy post about the topic [1], if you're keen to know more.

[0]: https://www.smart-energy.com/renewable-energy/renewables-pow...

[1]: https://simon.medium.com/bitcoin-and-pollution-the-definitiv...

Is there reason to believe even a majority comes from renewable sources? And then, how much of that clean energy could be powering other things which are instead using fossil fuels?

At least in Europe, the lowest prices (even negative sometimes) for electricity are when renewable energies are producing a lot (e.g. when there's a storm in the north sea). If bitcoin mines are plugged on the real time market of electricity they would have an incentive to turn on when there's a lot of renewable energy produced. Assuming mines optimize their mining schedules on that, there's a scenario in which it could even help soak up the low prices and push investments into renewables.

Maybe, but only running miners when electricity is cheap doesn't work for a proof of work currency. 51% attacks would consist of an individual turning on their ASIC on a windless day. You need a large base load for it to be secure.

A lot of mining is done close to hydro dams, this power was in some cases waste power that would be unused. So it is swings and roundabouts, I don't think any new coal power stations are being built to mine bitcoin but bitcoin miners have taken advantage of excess electricity production to site their mines where power is cheapest.

I’d half remembered mining clusters near large hydro projects in China. As to the opportunity cost, getting the electricity from one place to another where it can be used if you have a local glut isn’t easy, aiui

If you freed all those resources, you could equivalently reduce fossil fuel consumption (up to 0%, of course). So I say it matters very much.

If you made it a crime to fly to tropical islands to enjoy the beach in the winter, you would enjoy a reduction in fossil fuels too, and people would be more productive than loafing about on the beach.

End of the day, people choose to spend resources on things that provide utility to them.

Even if it were all green energy, why not use it to produce aluminum or to get rid of coal instead of wasting it on math puzzles?

This is a bit too hypothetical: the most generous estimate I can find is that Bitcoin is still using 61% non-renewable energy, in as much as farms are favourably set up in places with cheap energy (somewhat but not entirely correlated with renewable energy).

Even if all of Bitcoin uses renewables, that's demand for renewable energy that drives prices up, which will lead other energy consumers to either pay more or pick less expensive non-renewable energy sources instead.

I don’t think power markets are that fluid in most of the world

If energy demand suddenly halved, I do think we would choose to turn coal plants off before solar panels. Of course Bitcoin isn't half of any country's energy, but proportionally it works the same way. There is no reason not to turn it off except some daredevils' get-rich-quick scheme falls apart.

One argument I've heard it's that it increasing the power demand beyond what renewables can handle. Reducing total power consumption would be more ideal.

That would depend on how much heat the computations/mining itself generates - has to be some - and the total effort to make graphics cards or other hardware for a lot of clients that would not really exist if crypto wouldn't be a thing

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