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Comment by Jkvngt | Hacker News Reader

John Deere is an abusive company which despises its customers, and these customers reward them by gleefully buying that new million dollar harvester and doffing branded caps at every occasion. It’s extremely difficult to pity the farmer in this case. They are planning soon to change all their dimensions to conform with metric farming practices and spacing, which will entail having to re-buy all new stuff again. Oops maybe I shouldn’t have said that last part out loud, it might still be a secret...

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If you've lived in the midwest anywhere in the last, I dunno, 5 decades, you'll know that John Deere plays the long game. They advertise to people from their infancy to their adulthood. They have more brand recognition in the midwest than either Pepsi and Coke.

When you've been exposed to this kind of life-long influence, it's hard to break out of the mindset. You know John Deere Green, and they've been associated with quality and durability and they belong with you on the farm. They're all but family.

Case, or that weird orange company with the foreign name, on the other hand, are strangers who you don't know if you can trust.

Advertising, no matter how much we say to the contrary, works. And John Deere are old hands at that trade.

In the 90s in rural missouri everyone had those orange tractors (new). Or the red ones (older, or new combines). Or the blue ones (new). Not very many green ones except rusting in the field or as the toy old one you used for around the property work while the real one was doing real work.

Harley Davidson. Marlboro. Jack Daniels. American Music and Films.

If you ever want to see the power of advertising go to another country and it will all be there.

That isn’t just advertising that’s American soft power projection (especially with music and film) - trade agreements have helped the others.

Being there is not always the same as success. Harley for example is seen as overpriced extremely bad quality by almost all bikers outside the US, except maybe by the few who own a Harley. Pretty much the same as Jack Daniels, except that is at least as cheap as it tastes.

> Harley for example is seen as overpriced extremely bad quality by almost all bikers outside the US

This is true in the US as well, in my experience, for both HD and Jack. I think the point is that the Harley brand still holds value among a community of fans both in and outside of the US in a way that [some Japanese sport bike manufacturer] isn't differentiated against its competitors.

This also means the sport bike manufacturers that have competitors have to at least pretend to constantly improve, so there's a lower risk of stagnation which HD is now dealing with.

Not that you're wrong that JD has a huge following, but over the past 5 decades they have basically gone the way of American auto manufacturers: everyone knows that their products are inferior to the "imports" (which are all made in America anyway), and they survive by brand recognition, big head start establishing a dealer network, and servicing product categories that nobody else does.

Kubota is basically the Toyota to John Deere - they are eating JD's lunch in quality and buyer/owner perception (as well as sales volume) in the "small cars" segment, and is quickly moving up-market. Kubota doesn't sell combines yet, for example, and they are still not outselling JD in anything other than compact tractors, but the people who buy those (myself included) will never go back to JD. Deere has been plagued with quality issues and where they do innovate with some flashy features at times (just like the F-150 does vs the Tundra), they seem to often cause more trouble than they can be worth.

I would say that (depending on the "trade war" of course) Kubota and the "imports" will surpass JD in total units sold some time in the next decade and then start eroding their dominance in the large tractor market in the following decade, if not sooner.

Yes. I had a Kubota B7800 for about fifteen years. The JD competitor was made by Iseki, priced higher, and known for hydraulic system problems. The choice was easy and I never regretted it.

At the same time I bought the Kubota I worked for a company that made automatic steering systems one could retrofit to many tractors... but not JD, who were already controlling their hydraulic system access.

Never bought JD, stuck with Kubota.

but not JD, who were already controlling their hydraulic system access.

I've only ever used an ancient Farmall tractor where the hydraulic system is just a bunch of generic hoses and levers. How does JD limit hydraulic system access? Do they use proprietary fittings? Digital controls that will refuse to engage the hydraulic pump if a line is spliced?

SAE J1939 specifies an optional encrypted word, and JD used that for hydraulic controls IIRC.

Kudos on keeping the Farmall. My gf at the time had a Ford 8N and I loved that thing on her land, but 2wd didn't work well at my place.

I still have my great grandfathers Farmall Cub, it was the first tractor he and my grandfather bought for the citrus farm they homesteaded in FL, when he passed my grandfather restored it. When my grandfather sold the farm it was the only tractor he kept. My grandfather passed on in 2013 so I brought it down to my property in the FL Keys and use it as a yard tractor here. They just don't build machinery like those old tractors anymore.

It's digitally controlled, no more physical levers connected to valves.

The whole import argument doesn't really hold up very well. The only companies that really challenge John Deere at the high end of the market are Case, Claas and Fendt. The US market is still dominated by the US manufacturers due to the sheer logistics of importing these large machines, and the lack of dealer networks.

Also, you'd be kidding yourself if you think Claas or Fendt are any less reliant on proprietary software at this point.

I've heard the lack of dealer networks is one of the key points against competitors. Those networks serve as a parts and systems replacements logistics multiplier. Implicit 'insurance' against crop loss is built in to that high price.

Logically some kind of insurance against opportunity loss due to equipment issues, and/or better logistics supply for parts would probably aid competition.

Yes, and the imports similarly failed to challenge Ford, GM, and Dodge muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. But Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. didn't start at the high end, either.

The US market is dominated by US manufacturers due to inertia, all manufacturers are following the same formula of foreign subcomponents and domestic steel.

My father insisted on getting a brand-new Massey Ferguson compact tractor. Way overpriced but he's got brand loyalty from many decades back.

Wouldn't even hear of a Kubota.

I call my Kubota 4.5kW my ole trusty. You can't kill it.

This is true when you get to smaller tractor classes, but when you get up to the big specialized tractors like combines, Kubota and the others just really are not in the game in the US, it's dominated by a few players and they all have closed proprietary systems. Caterpillar and a few other players do this is the specialized heavy equipment game, it's pretty much the same playbook.

As well their really is no comparison, to JD's high end fleet tractors to the ones they sell to compete with New Holland or Kubota, they are different lines with different quality controls. It gets even worse when you get down to personal lawn tractors. They are basically just rebadging commodity built hardware at that level.

> They advertise to people from their infancy to their adulthood.

I grew up in Europe, my family had zero farming background, and even I remember playing with small John Deere tractor toys [0] as a kid in the 90ies.

[0] https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XOD3wPXwEy0/maxresdefault.jpg

The thing I have noticed is pockets of popular brands. The deciding factor being the proximity to a regional parts depot. Where I grew up, the JD parts depot is a 20 minute drive away. Any other brand.... much bigger deal (slower) to get parts. But drive 60 miles to the west, and all the tractors are red.

Same as Harley Davidson bikes, the weirdest way to transform gasoline into noise: it is all about marketing and nothing about the products.

The entire industry does. I work for a component supplier in the industry and the US companies are just awful.

Their two priorities are:

1) Proprietary Fit - how do they prevent their customers from buying replacement components from third parties and keep them coming back to them for maintenance

2) Look and feel - I've seen major contracts decided on which design had fake diamond plate to project "toughness", despite higher price and worse performance.

Price and performance are somewhat farther down the list and barely enter into the decisions.

The European and Japanese companies in contrast actually care about and drive performance requirements.

I've done work for a well known euro car maker, and they had several of the brackets interfering in CAD. This could have been avoided with a simple collision check that they should have done. After informing them of the errors, they fixed the print with a -/- tolerance and left the 3d model interfering.

All of the domestic car manufacturers took great care to ensure clearance between parts.

(I'm a Toyota fanboy but have never done work for them.)

I don't have any automotive experience but that largely squares with what I hear through the grapevine in the Auto industry.

In the heavy machinery industry which Deere opporates it's mostly the opposite. Kubota, Agco, Bosch etc. are miles ahead of Deere and Caterpillar; who are largely relying on past reputation at this point.

Kinda interesting that people seem to agree here that John Deere is abusive, but Apple does the same thing with consumer electronics, and tends to have a favorable view on this subreddit.

Tesla is pushing the same anti-right-to-repair angle and also seems to get (mostly) admiration by the "tech community" at large. As seems to always be the case, it's a lot easier to be critical when the company/group/individual isn't "on your side".

Tesla avoids supporting third party repairs because repairing a potentially damaged self driving system or damaged batteries can have really bad outcomes. People scrutinize Tesla enough as it is without shoddy repairs making it worse

Do you know how many farming accidents involve tractors and combine harvesters etc. ?

The exact same argument could apply there.

You do know that is EXACT same flawed logic that Auto Manufacturers have been making for Decades... and the EXACT same aurgument that John Deere, Apple and every other Anti-Repair advocate makes

The plebs just can not be trusted to repair their own things, it is far too dangerous. If you repair you iPhone you might burn down your home, if you repair your brakes you might kill grandma, and if you repair are Tesla you might .....

Safety has never, and will never be a valid reason to prohibit independent / self repair

Which is luckily illegal in the EU. Tesla will be sued big time at some point as they do not play by the rules like the other manufacturers. Tesla makes VW look like pure angles.

A potentially damaged fuel system or potentially damaged hydraulic brake system can also have really bad outcomes, but I can buy a replacement fuel pump or brake caliper over-the-counter at O'Reilly Auto and install them with no interference from the manufacturer.

Thus far...

It is not the same. John Deere is taking predominantly mechanical devices and embedding technology for the purpose of artificially locking them down.

Apple is building devices that are inherently difficult or impossible to service without a supply chain of bespoke parts—and refusing to open their parts supply chain.

Thats literally the same.

That is the exact same thing. Apple even glues stuff just to fuck with people that want to repair anything. If anything Apple is worse than John Deere (by far IMO).

To imply that adhesives are chosen “just to fuck with” repairers is absurd, paranoid and trivially falsified. The use of adhesives is widespread in the industry and are necessary for effective IP-rated waterproofing of these thin devices.

Consumers wanted phones that didn’t die when accidentally dropped into the bath. Apple, Samsung, etc complied.

Devices are still repairable, you just need knowledge of techniques and replacement adhesives. But now the chances of needing a repair in the first place have greatly lowered. That seems like a consumer friendly win to me.

Just because it is used for other reasons doesn't mean it can't be used to fuck with repairers too. Apple has a long history of doing just that. I take it you are not a fan of Louis Rossmann?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w

Louis Rossman is a moderately competent microelectronics repairer who found his calling as a YouTube entertainer and low-grade anti-Apple meme celebrity. He produces entertainment content where Apple features as 'the bad guy' and many people find it utterly captivating. He is barely qualified to have an opinion about why complex electronics products are made the way they are.

The limits on (user-)serviceability of Apple et al are regular discussions here.

The people who would run to Deere's defense don't hang out on HN.

Tech companies named after fruit and car manufacturers (yes, plural) who's names begin with T and end with A can do little wrong around here. Sure they catch a little flak because they engage in less than ideal behavior (just like every other sociopaths BigCo engages in) but they get at least a partial pass or benefit of the doubt because they make products the HN demographics like and would at least consider owning. Comparatively nobody here sees themselves using their bonus as the down payment on a swather so the narrative devolves into a simplistic and nuance free "Kubota good, Deere bad".

I think the apparent scale of the abuse by John Deere is what puts it in a different class for many people. It's the same shitty philosophy, but companies like Apple and Toyota are tolerable to most people because it's relatively subdued compared to what John Deere is doing.

If my iPhone or my Toyota breaks, I can go to any of a dozen locations in my city and get it fixed in a few days. And basic repairs don't have to be done by a professional. I can still change the oil, brakes, fuel pump, water pump, belts, etcetera on my toyota. I can fix the screen on an iphone pretty easily. From what I hear, John Deere requires official access to the on-board software for even the most mundane of repairs. Something a farmer could fix in 15 minutes turns into a months-long affair. If your Deere tractor breaks, supposedly it's almost impossible to get a tech out to your farm in a timely fashion. So your $1 million piece of equipment is broken during harvest and your crops are dying in the field.

I think a differentiating factor could be history. Historically farmers have always been able to work on their equipment and this has been long factored into the cost of running a farm. Slowly they are being pushed out of that repair model and their costs are going up. Farm equipment gets a massive amount of physical abuse and it is expected they will break and the farmer can fire up that old generator welder, get out the magic mallet of repair and give 'er a few good whacks. Most of the diesel engines are even designed to be field repaired. On some of them, you can even pop the cylinder sleeves out, swap out the piston rings and you are back in business. People are still coming up with newer simpler tools to do this quickly. If you want to see some amazing ad-hoc repair jobs, watch Andrew Camarata's youtube channel. [1] He brings old rusty equipment back to life and then uses them to make money.

Apple devices have always been designed with limited end-user serviceability. You can reload the OS, change some firmware settings, but not much more. In my opinion, the majority of people buying these devices expected them to "just work". When that ceases to be the case, people go to the Genius Bar.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/c/AndrewCamarata/videos

I could really use an accessible YouTube channel about basic electronics diagnosis - how to diagnose a failed unit from power supply forward through components. I like EEVblog but it assumes a little more prior knowledge than I have.

I don't know, Louis Rossmann (an independent Mac repair technician who campaigns if favour of right to repair) has become a bit of a celebrity in recent years[1], and Apple has been forced by public pressure to soften their stance with regards to independent repair shops[2].

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that when someone mentions right to repair, more people think about Apple rather than John Deere. (Especially considering that, in my experience, many city people don't even know what John Deere is, this is definitely the case outside of the US at least).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Rossmann

[2] https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/08/apple-gets-halfway-to-all...

JD is widely used in French vineyards and BOA. As are Renault, Fendt, M-F, Fiat and Lamborghini.

Not just Apple, but also any video-game console manufacturer.

There are justifiable reasons to limit users' ability to modify firmware. Piracy prevention is one. Also warranty. Users might run modified software that breaks the vehicle, then restore OEM software. A potential compromise might be to release keys, but cancel warranty for customers to opt to do so.

Cheats and exploits are also much more common on PCs.

> tends to have a favorable view on this subreddit.

"subreddit" becoming synonymous with internet forum?

At times, yes. I just translate it and move on.

Perhaps the shorthand of “sub” would be a better generic term, as in a community of people isolated underwater, smelling our own farts, threatened by hull breaches and whose interaction with the outside world mostly involves pings. :)

I live in the Midwest (and hate JD). Many continue to buy from them simply because they are the only company that guarantees parts years after production. They will make a 100 year old part if they get enough orders for it. Most other manufacturers have been bought and sold, often making parts hard to source.

> It’s extremely difficult to pity the farmer in this case.

What are the available options?

Boycott the company, buy from another manufacturer, lobby the Iowa government to stop these abusive practices. Or just sit back, bend over, pull down your pants, and take it while wearing the branded cap of the company which is abusing you?

Really it’s all about choice now isn’t it?

Parts availability is a massive factor. When you break down mid-task, your task is often time sensitive. You can't always risk having your tractor stuck in the middle of a paddock for weeks while you get new parts in.

So, the reality of choice is pretty much down to what your local tractor seller/repairer supports, because they'll have the supply chain setup to cope with certain brands only.

The issue is that the tractor senses if you try to repair it yourself. There’s a trap mechanism which will punish you if you’re audacious enough to try to fix your machine.

Wait, what?

Truth. Equipment is locked to the chassis SN and exchanging it throws a flag that requires a JD signoff to clear.

> lobby the Iowa government to stop these abusive practices.

Isn't the right to repair movement exactly that? I don't think farmers are entirely absent from it.

From what I hear the resale market on old farm equipment rivals Apple products in their ability to retain their value

Kubota and New Holland seem to be popular in my area, to the extent that I used to drive past a Kubota dealership on my way to some high school extracurricular or other.

Not much out there to compete with the new X series combines. Claas Lexion is pretty much the only series contender in the 6000 bu/hr range.

As the article alludes, they really aren't different from Tesla in this regard.

> They are planning soon to change all their dimensions to conform with metric farming practices and spacing, which will entail having to re-buy all new stuff again.

Oh, please. Every planter tool bar that I have ever seen allows planter boxes/heads to be moved and clamped at fairly arbitrary space. Combine heads, not so, but, meh, change the planter to fit the combine.

Is there a better option? Is Case or whatever else (sorry, not up on farm implements) a better option?

When I needed to fix my Case IH planter, the dealer handed me the service manual (book) and off I went.

When I needed to fix my John Deere combine, the repair tech had to decrypt the service manual on his laptop for me.

There does seem to be some different cultures around protecting information, but I was able to access what I needed in both cases, so I'm not sure it makes that much difference at the end of the day.

I haven't had much trouble with Deere not willing to work with me and my equipment. No more than any other brand, and my shed has all the major brands in it.

There is no doubt a squeeze on people who don't own John Deere equipment, but wish to have an independent career fixing John Deere farm equipment on behalf of other farmers. That isn't a problem seen by farmers directly, though.

It's Qt on Linux just like Tesla. Builds take 40+ minutes even with ICECREAM. Even Deere developers have a hard time fixing issues. Both Deere and Tesla need to be fully open sourced in FCC filings modulo crypto keys.

John Deere is another MBAized company that is no longer in touch with reality, just powerpoints presentations.

If they doff the branded caps, they are taking them off which suggests not having an affinity with the brand.

Usually just temporarily though. Indicating their paying respect or subservience to another. See also hat-tip.

Not the person you're replying to, but he's using the term correctly. Doffing the cap is a sign of respect.

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