Farmers are having to hack their own tractors to make repairs
thedrive.com
thedrive.com
This was in MN and using an online auction too.
These rebuilt engines generate at least 20 times the pollution as emissions-certified engines:
https://eelp.law.harvard.edu/2018/02/heavy-duty-truck-glider...
Looking at car world, for cars even with locked ecus, you can get things like piggyback or standalone units, transmission controllers, awd controllers, dynamic suspension controllers, and so on, because there is a huge market for it both in amateur racing and enthusiast modification, and most of these void warranty.
Seems like this would be pretty straightforward to do - in the end, all mechanical equipment follows some raw control signal that easy to intercept and modify. Legally, you can even get around most restrictions by selling programmable modules and then making the software open source.
My guess is that paying John Deer for whatever they ask is not a big deal financially to most (although probably not all) farmers.
"But U.S. farmers are saddled with near-record debt, declaring bankruptcy at rising rates and selling off their farms amid an uncertain future clouded by climate change and whipsawed by tariffs and bailouts."
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2020/0...
That would create a opportunity for the EPA to shoot your dog. This isn't a market you can just enter. Manufacturing goods that have to last for decades doesn't start up and scale up like software. It would take so much time to build up a competitor that the incumbents would have more than enough notice to crush you.
I don't know much about tractors, but I don't think you can go much lower than $18k and still make your costs back.
Mahindra.
Even though many of these are marked as "in planning," my aspiration to have a farm now includes building it with open source machines.
https://www.opensourceecology.org/portfolio/tractor/
Hopefully they get some more funding or someone else takes up the torch. Even then, these are generalist machines; I don't know how far they scale up.
I'm wondering if possibly a Youtube channel with an experienced engineer in charge and Patreon support wouldn't be a better backdrop for such a project. Something like Kliemannsland (German Youtube channel that runs their own compound) meets Stuff Made Here.
My biggest disappointment though is that their 3D printer isn't complete yet even though that's low hanging fruit. Simply modifying an existing design would have satisfied me but nope. They don't even have a 3D printer design.
I don't run a farm or anything, I just think it's neat.
High-end tractors have been driving autonomously for years, with precise GPS, multiple cameras, Internet connections, etc. It's not unthinkable that hostile nation-state actors could hack the firmware to simply direct a 25-ton combine to leave the field and drive through the nearest population center (or high-voltage transmission line, oil storage tank, etc.)
It's like those bad monster movies where the people just stand their screaming while guy in the heavy and clunky rubber suit slowly waddles towards them.
Hacking something like a Tesla would probably be better. At least then you can maximize the V in your E=1/2mv^2 calculation.
[1] - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/vermont-man-uses-tracto...
[2] - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2182958/Police-Vt-f...
[3] - https://motleynews.net/2012/08/03/lmao-vermont-man-upset-ove...
Well, the good news is these things have a pretty low top speed, so I think you'd be able to dodge out of the way.
Their ripoff prices, however, are very much real
Disclosure: used to work in a group that made the chips that would do the locking down in applications like this.
Here is a well built analog object that should last generations.
Perhaps the analogy fails when you think about the supporting characters, film development, tractor parts, but it does seem a market luddites version of “x” exists.
At some point you do need someone else's technology tree (like an engine case).
And at that point, I think computers can simplify things.
There are all kinds of things that work better if you have a wire and a solenoid, as opposed to a mechanical linkage, or a bundle of individual wires or a vacuum line.
People in the Midwest whose livelihoods are tied to the Deere Corporation hate that joke.
"Misfit Tractors a Money Saver for Arkansas Farmer"
"Reed estimates a modern tractor depreciates at approximately $85 per hour."
https://www.agweb.com/news/misfit-tractors-money-saver-arkan...
Also, the issue of voiding your warranty by using non-certified parts and repair centers.
Part of the farming life has always been resourcefully fixing stuff. (Hence the phrase "Held together with duct tape and baling wire." Baling wire refers to hay bales.)
Nothing new here.
Manufacturer liability is probably voided if you do your own software or hardware repairs.
This applies to not just normal periodic maintance/replaceable parts, but repairs after accidents, cosmetic upgrades, whatever.
So no, Apple cannot refuse to provide warranty replacement on your defective battery if you previously had the screen replaced with a third party after dropping it, since Apple does not provide free screens for negligance. Of course, if Apple can show that this replacement screen or its installation process is likely the cause of the battery not working, they can refuse to cover fixing the battery under warranty.
The problem here is that John Deere will claim that your bypassing their softwareware protections means you were running the tractor outside its design parameters, and that is why your transmission broke, not because it was defective or originally installed incorrectly by them.
To force them to reimburse you for failing to cover this under warranty you would need to convince the jury that it is more likely that the damage was from a defect or John Deere's incorrect installation than it was from side effect of you bypassing john Deere's software. Yeah, it could be rather tricky to convince them of that. Especially since you would already have had to pay for repairs, which likely means you don't have enough to pay for the lawsuit. (John Deere would need to reimburse your legal costs if you win the suit, but most of your time, aggravation and hassle is not reimbursable, and you need to be able to front the needed money in the first place).
What are the available options?
Really it’s all about choice now isn’t it?
So, the reality of choice is pretty much down to what your local tractor seller/repairer supports, because they'll have the supply chain setup to cope with certain brands only.
Isn't the right to repair movement exactly that? I don't think farmers are entirely absent from it.
When I needed to fix my John Deere combine, the repair tech had to decrypt the service manual on his laptop for me.
There does seem to be some different cultures around protecting information, but I was able to access what I needed in both cases, so I'm not sure it makes that much difference at the end of the day.
I haven't had much trouble with Deere not willing to work with me and my equipment. No more than any other brand, and my shed has all the major brands in it.
There is no doubt a squeeze on people who don't own John Deere equipment, but wish to have an independent career fixing John Deere farm equipment on behalf of other farmers. That isn't a problem seen by farmers directly, though.
When you've been exposed to this kind of life-long influence, it's hard to break out of the mindset. You know John Deere Green, and they've been associated with quality and durability and they belong with you on the farm. They're all but family.
Case, or that weird orange company with the foreign name, on the other hand, are strangers who you don't know if you can trust.
Advertising, no matter how much we say to the contrary, works. And John Deere are old hands at that trade.
If you ever want to see the power of advertising go to another country and it will all be there.
This is true in the US as well, in my experience, for both HD and Jack. I think the point is that the Harley brand still holds value among a community of fans both in and outside of the US in a way that [some Japanese sport bike manufacturer] isn't differentiated against its competitors.
This also means the sport bike manufacturers that have competitors have to at least pretend to constantly improve, so there's a lower risk of stagnation which HD is now dealing with.
Kubota is basically the Toyota to John Deere - they are eating JD's lunch in quality and buyer/owner perception (as well as sales volume) in the "small cars" segment, and is quickly moving up-market. Kubota doesn't sell combines yet, for example, and they are still not outselling JD in anything other than compact tractors, but the people who buy those (myself included) will never go back to JD. Deere has been plagued with quality issues and where they do innovate with some flashy features at times (just like the F-150 does vs the Tundra), they seem to often cause more trouble than they can be worth.
I would say that (depending on the "trade war" of course) Kubota and the "imports" will surpass JD in total units sold some time in the next decade and then start eroding their dominance in the large tractor market in the following decade, if not sooner.
At the same time I bought the Kubota I worked for a company that made automatic steering systems one could retrofit to many tractors... but not JD, who were already controlling their hydraulic system access.
Never bought JD, stuck with Kubota.
I've only ever used an ancient Farmall tractor where the hydraulic system is just a bunch of generic hoses and levers. How does JD limit hydraulic system access? Do they use proprietary fittings? Digital controls that will refuse to engage the hydraulic pump if a line is spliced?
Kudos on keeping the Farmall. My gf at the time had a Ford 8N and I loved that thing on her land, but 2wd didn't work well at my place.
Also, you'd be kidding yourself if you think Claas or Fendt are any less reliant on proprietary software at this point.
Logically some kind of insurance against opportunity loss due to equipment issues, and/or better logistics supply for parts would probably aid competition.
The US market is dominated by US manufacturers due to inertia, all manufacturers are following the same formula of foreign subcomponents and domestic steel.
Wouldn't even hear of a Kubota.
As well their really is no comparison, to JD's high end fleet tractors to the ones they sell to compete with New Holland or Kubota, they are different lines with different quality controls. It gets even worse when you get down to personal lawn tractors. They are basically just rebadging commodity built hardware at that level.
I grew up in Europe, my family had zero farming background, and even I remember playing with small John Deere tractor toys [0] as a kid in the 90ies.
The exact same argument could apply there.
The plebs just can not be trusted to repair their own things, it is far too dangerous. If you repair you iPhone you might burn down your home, if you repair your brakes you might kill grandma, and if you repair are Tesla you might .....
Safety has never, and will never be a valid reason to prohibit independent / self repair
Apple is building devices that are inherently difficult or impossible to service without a supply chain of bespoke parts—and refusing to open their parts supply chain.
Consumers wanted phones that didn’t die when accidentally dropped into the bath. Apple, Samsung, etc complied.
Devices are still repairable, you just need knowledge of techniques and replacement adhesives. But now the chances of needing a repair in the first place have greatly lowered. That seems like a consumer friendly win to me.
Tech companies named after fruit and car manufacturers (yes, plural) who's names begin with T and end with A can do little wrong around here. Sure they catch a little flak because they engage in less than ideal behavior (just like every other sociopaths BigCo engages in) but they get at least a partial pass or benefit of the doubt because they make products the HN demographics like and would at least consider owning. Comparatively nobody here sees themselves using their bonus as the down payment on a swather so the narrative devolves into a simplistic and nuance free "Kubota good, Deere bad".
If my iPhone or my Toyota breaks, I can go to any of a dozen locations in my city and get it fixed in a few days. And basic repairs don't have to be done by a professional. I can still change the oil, brakes, fuel pump, water pump, belts, etcetera on my toyota. I can fix the screen on an iphone pretty easily. From what I hear, John Deere requires official access to the on-board software for even the most mundane of repairs. Something a farmer could fix in 15 minutes turns into a months-long affair. If your Deere tractor breaks, supposedly it's almost impossible to get a tech out to your farm in a timely fashion. So your $1 million piece of equipment is broken during harvest and your crops are dying in the field.
Apple devices have always been designed with limited end-user serviceability. You can reload the OS, change some firmware settings, but not much more. In my opinion, the majority of people buying these devices expected them to "just work". When that ceases to be the case, people go to the Genius Bar.
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that when someone mentions right to repair, more people think about Apple rather than John Deere. (Especially considering that, in my experience, many city people don't even know what John Deere is, this is definitely the case outside of the US at least).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Rossmann
[2] https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/08/apple-gets-halfway-to-all...
There are justifiable reasons to limit users' ability to modify firmware. Piracy prevention is one. Also warranty. Users might run modified software that breaks the vehicle, then restore OEM software. A potential compromise might be to release keys, but cancel warranty for customers to opt to do so.
"subreddit" becoming synonymous with internet forum?
Their two priorities are:
1) Proprietary Fit - how do they prevent their customers from buying replacement components from third parties and keep them coming back to them for maintenance
2) Look and feel - I've seen major contracts decided on which design had fake diamond plate to project "toughness", despite higher price and worse performance.
Price and performance are somewhat farther down the list and barely enter into the decisions.
The European and Japanese companies in contrast actually care about and drive performance requirements.
All of the domestic car manufacturers took great care to ensure clearance between parts.
(I'm a Toyota fanboy but have never done work for them.)
In the heavy machinery industry which Deere opporates it's mostly the opposite. Kubota, Agco, Bosch etc. are miles ahead of Deere and Caterpillar; who are largely relying on past reputation at this point.
Oh, please. Every planter tool bar that I have ever seen allows planter boxes/heads to be moved and clamped at fairly arbitrary space. Combine heads, not so, but, meh, change the planter to fit the combine.
2) Don't they sell original, reman and alternative parts? https://www.deere.com/en/parts-and-service/parts/
3) Don't they have a major dealer network - 3,000 dealers in the US alone? At least where I am there is a ridiculous number of deere dealers. Is the complaint that farmers cannot fix things themselves vs not get repaired at all?
4) Isn't a lot of this hacking around getting features you didn't pay for - license key gen stuff and getting around speed limiters etc? I'm not sure I count that as "repair" though I know it's super annoying and everyone wants to turn off stuff, turn off features.
Same thing with DPEF deletes and bypasses on diesel equip in US (also rampant) and a lot of the tuning. Plenty of folks "hack" their equip with a tune or to do a DPEF delete, then submit a warranty claim (at least in cars) when they burn something up. But major demand is not around repairs, a lot of the black market demand is around this other stuff.
5) The integrated combine stuff is not simple software, there def is a major investment in the tech stack for some "farms". I might call it ag engineering now? 3 cm accuracy season to season, active yield management (ie, monitors how settings affect yield, can map yield, tweak settings etc etc).
They see more margin in this cloud based revenue, the same way Microsoft does with its push into the cloud. Eventually it's probably going to migrate to essentially power by the hour type models that are already out in other higher end equipment. Their powerguard stuff is trending that way (all costs included for $100 deductible).
It's going to be some other company (Kubota?) that could do the open firmware / open source version. There should be some market for this, not sure how commercial it will be.
One big issue is that a fair number of tractor code faults are emissions control faults on these machines which are super annoying as the emissions system is sensitive especially as it ages. That may be in part a problem with overly strict emissions controls. So deleting emissions controls is popular in this space. And yes, dealers actually do help with this on tractors.
If you need to be able to hack your stuff in this way - lots online here: https://machinery-tunes.com/john-deere-dpf-egr-def-scr.html
Sincerely,
Kathy J. Strubbins
Director, Marketing
John Deere Corporation
You used to own your music. The next generation largely DOES NOT. Does HN not understand this?
You used to own your movies etc. The current netflix generation DOES NOT.
You used to buy equipment (like tractors). Now a surprising range of stuff is going to pay for power / hour etc. This includes firmware for tractors which enforces whatever emissions control regime, speed control, overload control, annoying safety things (lane departure warnings on commercial vehicles are so maddening commercial drivers have the silence button built into their muscle memory and almost all would turn them off if they could).
John Deere and EVERY other company is going this direction as fast as they can. This is not a question of PR, it is a question of current fact. This is to make money, build big tech platforms, allow for snitching on all sorts of things (elogs now let fleet operators know about tailgating by drivers in commercial trucking) etc.
One factor for me - things were opened up in the automotive world, and emissions controls on diesel trucks are a MAJOR source of the "hacking" people came up with.
Some estimates are 50%+ of trucks in places like texas are running delete's. So that is an incredible pollution impact.
It would be helpful to have some more specific examples (other than emissions bypasses / feature lockout bypasses - yes very annoying on a 800K vehicle!, etc) where farmers can't do a repair. What repair, in particular, do farmers want to do in the field, that they can't? That might help ground the convo.
I still own music, still own movies, and I also subscribe to Spotify and Netflix, it is not an either / or proposition
Further attempting to compare Tractors, Cars, and other hard goods to something like a Movie or music is well naive
Many of us understand that corporations and even governments are attempting to push people to a Post Ownership mentality, many of us also understand the EXTREME danger in doing so and are attempting to push back against this very FLAWED and DANGEROUS path corporations want to push society down.
Your positions so far are 1000% pointing out why corporations desire this, not why a consumer should.
>>where farmers can't do a repair. What repair, in particular, do farmers want to do in the field, that they can't? That might help ground the convo.
There are several parts on mordern Tractors that are firmware locked by Serial, things like Pumps, that even if you replace the physical part the electronic controls will not allow it to interface with the rest of the system with an approved dealer software to update the serial number or other control code for the new component.
very Similar to how the iPhone originally would only allow the Original camera to work on the phone and if you changed it out for one from a different phone it would not work (apple later back peddled on this) [1]
>>>One factor for me - things were opened up in the automotive world, and emissions controls on diesel trucks are a MAJOR source of the "hacking" people came up with. Some estimates are 50%+ of trucks in places like texas are running delete's. So that is an incredible pollution impact.
I see the disconnect, you are Pro Authoritarian government control over everyone's lives to micromanage everything "for the greater good". See I am libertarian so I am pretty sure we are never going to agree on well pretty much anything.
Aside from the fact that these regulations you talk about generally do not apply to non-road equipment (unless there is a state law) as the federal government only has the authority to regulate Vehicles approves for Interstate Highways (funny thing about the pesky 10th amendment and separation of powers)
Putting that aside the proper way to enforce an environmental control is not to install a Big Brother nanny box on every system to report back to Federal government every time I do a naughty thing. That is some freaking Orwellian dystopia shit right there, and I can not image anyone seriously supporting it
I don't WANT this. That doesn't mean I don't understand it.
For others that want to know more check out: http://rtkexplorer.com/
Also there’s a new device called the OpenRTK330 that looks promising.