Comment by vagrantJin | Hacker News Reader

Comment by vagrantJin | Hacker News Reader

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> South Africa is unique in the sense that there is a strong problem of racism and violence by black people against white people

This is really disturbing nonsense, it's little more than a projection of your own racist ideals. Criminals terrorize everyone, regardless of race. If you say white people are disproportionately targeted - please advise with links to meaningful, objective publicly available data so we can discuss.

The dangerous myth of farm murders

To any thinking person, doesn't that sound strange? A ridiculously small percentage of white south africans are farmers, why would criminals not bother with wealthy white people in Sandton, Umhlanga and Clifton, not bother upper, lower and middle class white people in the cities and suburbia (the people I work with) and go straight - with racist malice - to a narrow subset of white people who are farmers of all people? Why is there news of this being racially motivated? Is there evidence of this being racially motivated thing rather than criminal motivation?

If anyone has objective answers/links to discourse that transcend the black people bad - white people good narrative, I'll be happy to review.

The third largest party in SA, the EFF, uses racism frequently. Its rising popularity is a disturbing proof that racism in SA is probably growing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_Fighters

>Since its establishment the EFF has made a number of controversial racially or ethnically based statements about a number of South African minority groups. The EFF is widely criticised for inciting and perpetuating racism.[130][98][131] The EFF is known for staging controversial public protests aimed at increasing political support by driving race division and intolerance. Party practices have been defined as "fascist". [132][133][134][135][136][137][138] This approach has proved persuasive to a largely disenfranchised young black youth in South Africa who are mired by poverty, unemployment and inequality, where all minority groups, in particular whites, are singled out by party propaganda as the sole benefactors and drivers of inequality.

Edit:form

The BBC had a fairly objective review of data a few years back[1]

I think at least a few things need to be understood/considered in the context of "farm murders". There's been a growing movement from the EFF/ANC for "expropriation without compensation" of (primarily white-owned) farm land, so apart from any attacks there's a perception that the farmer's control of the land is illegitimate and must be taken by force.[2] Many of these attacks have also been horrifically violent, involving rape, prolonged torture, murder of children and the elderly, etc.[3][4]

'The white minority took our land. Enough is enough' - Julius Malema, EFF President and Commander-in-Chief

Lastly you need to think analogously to other countries - crime tends to be concentrated in poor, dense urban areas. For rural farmers to be murdered at a rate comparable to a dangerous inner city is extremely odd, and if you think the per-capita murder rate is closer to the high end of 150/100k vs. low end of 9/100k, you're talking about a level of ongoing violence seen almost nowhere else on earth.

Then separately there has been a recent/ongoing wave of violence against foreigners[5]:

A refugee from Democratic Republic of Congo told Human Rights Watch: “I was selling clothes on the street when nine South Africans carrying sjamboks and sticks came. They were beating people, shouting ‘You foreigners, go home! We don’t need you here! You are taking our jobs and money!’ I started to run away, but I was beaten, and my two bags of clothes were taken.”

In the US context this is difficult to comprehend since it's "black against black" xenophobia, but there's also the topic of racism against "coloureds" in South Africa. Perhaps one takeaway should be that Americans need to have a less parochial and US-centric understanding of other countries, which often have conflicts that don't smoothly map onto US politics and racial categorizations.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-41807642

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-49145347

[3] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-31/south-african-farm-mu...

[4] https://www.news.com.au/world/africa/farmer-killings-farmers...

[5] https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/09/17/south-africa-widespread-...

> The BBC had a fairly objective review of data a few years back

This is analogus to me asking for objective data about Afganistan...from the US.

I think you've missed my point entirely, either disregarding my concern for objectivity as invalid or you really do believe commonwealth countries, which are largely homogenous and/or majority white - are the best examples of objective views on a criminal/race driven murder in a majority black, African state.

I will continue nonetheless to ask for objectivity.

The call for expropriation without compensation isn't new nor is it growing. It's a regular part of South african political discourse since pre-1994. Nor is it a new concept, being a regular part of post war administration - see Post World War Japan[1], Korea and Taiwan for US involvement in land reform not dissimilar to South Africas land reform policy and make your own conclusion.

> racism towards coloureds

This comes off as grasping at straws. This would be national news. I would like to see evidence of this please.

> This is analogus to me asking for objective data about Afganistan...from the US.

They said objective review of data, not objective data. I would expect Americans are perfectly capable of objectively reviewing data about Afganistan. If you disagree, please provide evidence.

> disregarding my concern for objectivity as invalid or you really do believe commonwealth countries, which are largely homogenous and/or majority white - are the best examples of objective views on a criminal/race driven murder in a majority black, African state

Why not? Why does an analyst need to be black/African to be "objective"?

> If anyone has objective answers/links to discourse

There is a whole section on WP on this issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_South_Africa#Racism_...

By the way, neither ad hominem attacks nor straw man arguments (farm murders) are useful - not only they bring nothing constructive, but encourage degragation of the discourse into emotional name-calling.

I'm very well aware of the history of SA and the suffering of black people. However, I don't think it justifies the attacks some white people experience in SA from some black people.

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