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Comment by jfim | Hacker News Reader

> AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it.

If that was true, steaks would not be a thing. A good steak has some coarse salt and pepper for seasoning, but not much else.

Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat, and will ensure that it has a tough and unpleasant texture, strip all of the fats making it dry, and overall ruin a perfectly good cut of meat.

> But AFAIK meat eaters tend to spice their meat a lot, to an extent where there it is the spice is the primary taste.

That's just like saying "if people liked the taste of vegetables they wouldn't put salt or pepper on them."

Most people wouldn't eat plain tofu either, but it doesn't mean that it's bad, just means that it needs to be prepared as part of a dish, just like any other ingredient.

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> Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat, and will ensure that it has a tough and unpleasant texture, strip all of the fats making it dry, and overall ruin a perfectly good cut of meat.

However, sous vide is an absolutely marvelous way to prepare meat. It keeps it tender and juicy and then you can just sear it in a skillet or with a kitchen torch to get that nice Maillard reaction taste.

That it is. It's also pretty awesome with salmon [0], 43°C for an hour then take it out, pat the skin dry, and crisp the skin in a cast iron skillet with some oil, serve immediately. Crispy skin and buttery soft salmon makes for a great texture contrast and tastes absolutely delicious.

[0] https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2016/08/sous-vide-salmon...

> Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat

Pulled chicken and pork would like to have a word. The trick is to let the meat cool down in the water after boiling so that it reabsorbs the fluid it lost. You get wonderfully tender and juicy pulled meat, plus a good stock. And the world of braising is a deep and delicious one. Not to mention meat-based stews, soups, and chowders. I’d suggest that if you hate meat that’s been boiled, it’s been from someone who doesn’t know how to do it. Which I mean not as a dig, but as a way of saying that there’s a lot of good cooking out there waiting to be discovered!

You are just reiterating my point exactly. People like to alter the taste and texture of the food we eat. We do it with our plant based food, and—to a much greater extent—we do it to our meat based food.

Also, salt is a very powerful spice.

So what you mean is that people don't like the taste and texture of raw meat, and they're only pretending to like it because it's cooked? If you like steak cooked with some salt on it, that doesn't mean that you don't like steak.

I honestly don't get the point you're even trying to make here... because people do less to prepare vegetables they're somehow superior?

No, sorry I must not have made my point clear enough (this is what I get for trying to be snarky):

GP is saying that people like the taste and texture of meat. I’m saying that they only do after they have altered the taste and the texture of if. My point is that there is nothing inherent about meat that people like.

This is relevant to OP as the above claim is that there is no need to replicate the texture and taste of meat as you you have infinitely many ways to structure the taste and structure of plant based food, including ways that are superior in both taste and texture to how people prepare meat.

Steak tartare is delicious, and it's only cooked for the bare minimum to reduce the risk of food born illness. It turns out that raw meat is a delicacy. Also there's this thing called sashimi you may have heard of.

> My point is that there is nothing inherent about meat that people like.

There is actually, otherwise people wouldn't try to make a plant based version of it. It's savory (as in umami), has a higher fat content than plants, and also can have a variety of textures depending on the cut and cooking method, among other things.

> GP is saying that people like the taste and texture of meat.

Why are you interpreting what I wrote as if I claimed that people like the taste and texture of *raw* meat? That's probably the most uncharitable possible interpretation of my argument. Stop being ridiculous.

> there is no need to replicate the texture and taste of meat as you have infinitely many ways to structure the taste and structure of plant based food, including ways that are superior in both taste and texture to how people prepare meat.

This is so absurd I don't even know where to start.

The whole point of the article and the plant-based meat alternatives it talks about is that finally there's something that's close enough to ground beef in taste and texture that it can be substituted, but it still needs to come down in price to be a viable everyday alternative. Every alternative that came before simply wasn't good enough, and only really appealed to people who were already vegetarian. And the success of Beyond and Impossible shows that there is clearly a market for products that replicate meat, because a lot of people want to buy stuff that tastes like meat.

When it comes to actual beef, there's absolutely nothing like it yet, in neither taste nor texture, and texture is the part that is hardest to get right. If there was something even remotely comparable, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because everyone would already be happily eating that alternative.

I'm sure you're happy eating your little salads, thinking they're superior to every other dish in existence. But you clearly don't understand why people like meat, and what they like about it, which is why you appear bewildered by these products and claim that there is "no need" for them.

These products will be a cornerstone of future environmental policy and ensure we can meet our sustainability goals for the entire planet.

> Why are you interpreting what I wrote as if I claimed that people like the taste and texture of raw meat? That's probably the most uncharitable possible interpretation of my argument. Stop being ridiculous.

Sorry, you—and GPs—are putting words in my mouth. I never stated such a thing. People think they like meat, but they don’t. They only like meat after the taste and texture has been altered. Even then they probably mostly like it from force of habit.

> When it comes to actual beef, there's absolutely nothing like it yet, in neither taste nor texture, and texture is the part that is hardest to get right

This is actually the point of the debate, and it is highly opinionated so I don’t think we can see each others point of view here. But in Europe there is a trademark soy based alternative called Oumph! which is not trying to replicate meat in any way, but it is simply delicious. In my opinion the impossible meat we have here in America is simply disgusting next to it. There are so many ways to make good food with plant based food and trying to mimic one type of food that people only like after it has been prepared and spiced, just seems a little short sighted.

This is obviously wrong. He clearly means people want to replicate the taste and texture of the cooked meat they enjoy, not raw meat.

> We do it with our plant based food, and—to a much greater extent—we do it to our meat based food.

I'd disagree with that, I don't think plant based foods are seasoned or prepared that differently. Maybe you're thinking of barbecue where meat can be rubbed, smoked, then slathered in barbecue sauce, but most people don't eat that on a daily basis. Besides, it's not as if vegetarian and vegan dishes don't have any spices, a curry or a chili will have just as many spices as a rack of ribs or a brisket, if not more.

A plant based burger is prepped just as a meat based one, fried chicken isn't that far removed from tempura vegetables, cream of celery isn't that different from cream of chicken, and so on. Honestly, I can't think of a plant based dish that wouldn't have a meat based equivalent, other than salad.

> Also, salt is a very powerful spice.

Depends on how you want to look at it. It's not really a spice in the sense that it's not aromatic or pungent, it's in the category of ingredients that enhance taste, like monosodium glutamate.

I address this in a sibling comment.

In short: There is nothing inherent about meat that people like. People only like meat after they have altered the taste and texture of it. People can do the same (and more) with plant based food. In conclusion: Striving for the taste and texture of meat in particular is a poor goal for plant based food, as superior options exist.

Even if you only count the taste of a spiced meat, it’s still something you can’t get with vegetarian food. The taste and texture of meat, spiced or not, is something you can’t (so far) achieve with plant-based alternatives.

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