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Comment by _nickwhite | Hacker News Reader

I've said this from the very beginning of the pandemic that it makes no sense at all focusing on surfaces and raiding stores for hand sanitizer. Even the CDC themselves says this:

"On the other hand, transmission of novel coronavirus to persons from surfaces contaminated with the virus has not been documented."

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As far as I remember, in the early days it was assumed that most spread was via visible droplets and surface because all well-studied viruses that spread by aerosol would spread much faster in a zero-immunity population than observed with SARS-COV2. But those are all viruses that have many generations of adopting to humans under their belt. Compared to them the new one seems to be barely able to make landfall in humans at all. Now we know full well that the virus is aerosol-capable and the implied "surprisingly bad compatibility with humans" is consistent with the number of observed mutations that spread faster, probably quite a few evolutionary low hanging fruits to increase hit rate while spreading.

Back to topic, I think that in early days the surface focus wasn't a bad guess, it just happened to be wrong.

This quote might be stale, e.g. New Zealand suggests that it has identified cases of infection via lift button and bin: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427446/rubbish-bin-the-l...

Obviously this is disputed, because it's impossible to tell - saying "not been documented" is quite a neutral statement.

Even if surface transmission is unlikely, a single case could be enough to trigger a wider outbreak. So, if you are doing what you can to prevent aerosol transmission, then it also makes sense to minimise surface transmission.

That is just a hypothesis. We know little about the soundness of the evaluation of all likely vectors for this case. Also, "if it would save just one life" is where you're going with the last sentence. Diverting attention into non-existent or rare transmission vectors removes attention from known transmission vectors, which will increase infections.

> Also, "if it would save just one life" is where you're going with the last sentence.

Please read again. If a virus is transmitted even once via a surface, it is then free to transmit onwards by whatever method is most efficient. This is likely to cause an outbreak whenever R>1.

Preventing an additional outbreak is more relevant in NZ than in the US, perhaps.

> pressing a button on a lift shortly after someone with Covid-19 used it

If you rode in the lift shortly after someone with COVID-19 used it, it seems that airborne transmission is quite plausible.

The CDC did say that masks didn't work. Then they said that they do work.

I don't recall ever hearing the CDC say that masks don't work. My understanding is that initially there were recommendations against the general public wearing masks out of a concern that mass buying may have limited their availability to health care providers. In any case, the science is pretty clear now that they do work.

In order to limit buying the CDC pushed the lie that masks would not significantly affect the chance of catching COVID in a non-hospital setting. Then when that became too obviously wrong and PPE supply increased they changed their tune. This cost me a LOT of trust in the institution — that they would lie to manipulate mass behavior. Even early in the pandemic, the Asian countries which got the pandemic under control all required masks, and they have experience with coronaviruses.

After the above fiasco I don’t trust the CDC or any U.S. local or federal government agency to say that COVID won’t spread on surfaces when they are motivated to say so to save significant money and resources by skipping disinfection protocols.

To add a source:

>Who does not need PPE: CDC does NOT currently recommend the general public use facemasks. Instead, CDC recommends following everyday preventive actions, such as washing your hands, covering your cough, and staying home when you are sick.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200325060652/https://www.cdc.g...

You can see why this was interpreted to mean “masks don’t help”. There is no implication they are a good idea.

I very distinctly remember them saying "there is no evidence to suggest wearing a mask reduces the chances of contracting COVID-19" which is extremely different from saying they don't work, especially in the early days when there was barely any evidence/data at all.

Edit: actually, the CDC did recommend people who were either sick or caring for those who are sick wear masks and gives a clear reason as to why that's the recommendation: https://web.archive.org/web/20200324155703/https://www.cdc.g...

> In order to limit buying the CDC pushed the lie that masks would not significantly affect the chance of catching COVID in a non-hospital setting.

Is it actually a lie? I don't believe there is conclusive evidence either way. (It certainly doesn't appear to have made much difference here where we have had a mask mandate for months).

> “Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!” tweeted Dr. Jerome Adams, the U.S. Surgeon General, on Feb. 29. “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus"

So the surgeon general, not the CDC.

https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/

Our CDC ( Dutch equivalent RIVM.nl ) actually said they believed masks might be dangerous as it might give a false sense of security and ordinary citizens would not be able to handle them properly.

Mask are mandatory now in confined public spaces, but they have never started a campaign to train the public to handle the mask properly.

In California, once the guidance changed on masks in April they were still hard to buy so the guidance was “if you don’t have a mask, just wear a bandana or scarf over your face”. We have studies showing that this doesn’t work nearly as well as a surgical mask much less an n95, but I still see people doing it all the time.

There hasn’t been a public health campaign in the past 9 months to say “now that the shortage is over, wear a mask that actually works” which is crazy to me.

Source on those studies?

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0016018

> doesn’t work nearly as well

At getting infected or spreading infection?

both

That false security hypothesis is an interesting specimen. I remember not buying it because masks would also serve as a permanent reminder of urgency, more than countering false security effects.

But looking back at it from 2021, I can easily imagine that while most people wouldn't engage in any false security follies now, after months of various levels of lockdown, (except for those who are just as capable of follies without a mask), back then things might have been very different.

It would take quite some confidence now to return to old habits, but then it wasn't return to but not breaking. Not breaking old habits was hard enough even without a false security token, even the tiniest glimpse of security theatre could have blocked a lot.

I do recall hearing similar concerns hear in the US (although I can't recall now where these statements originated from. People wearing masks improperly is certainly frustrating. (e.g. nose out, chin strap, etc.)

It was not so much as wearing them improperly, but putting them on improperly ( the proces ).

Not the CDC, but surgeon general was spouting this garbage in March.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/29/health/face-masks-coronav...

CDC is referenced in the article too, but this tweet was just egregious.

Yeah, and the rest of the world still said "masks are a good idea" through all of that. It was pretty obvious what the CDC was up to at the time (trying not to cause panic buying, etc) but it was a terrible idea for them to do it.

Fauci and the WHO said the same thing. Only mask if you're sick or if you take care of sick people around you but you don't need to mask if you're healthy.

Edit: [0] is a archived version of the WHO public advice about when to use mask from late april. It probably was up even longer:

> If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19. Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing. Masks are effective only when used in combination with frequent hand-cleaning with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water. If you wear a mask, then you must know how to use it and dispose of it properly.

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20200421063423/https://www.who.i...

The rest of the world didn't say that. Many of the world's politicians felt the need to be seen to be doing something, so forced masks upon us despite little hard evidence.

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