A worker owned (co-op) store for sustainable products | Hacker News Reader

A worker owned (co-op) store for sustainable products

thesustainablecoopstore.splashthat.com

122 pointsvivekmgeorge53 comments

Signup pages can't be Show HNs. There needs to be something that readers can actually try out for themselves. Please read the rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html

I've taken Show HN out of the title now.

I posted this on another comment, but it might be relevant here as well. Basically, make a better product than Amazon in order to win, people don't usually care about the organizational structure of the company.

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I am reminded of OpenHunt, an open source version of Product Hunt that was made. The only value proposition was that it was open source, but it shut down precisely because users didn't care about that, they cared whether it had enough cool products (as a consumer) and enough traffic (as a submitter).

Here's one post-mortem: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10940729

> OpenHunt tried solving a problem for the content makers without providing any additional benefit to the content consumers.

> It's a nice, heart-warming mission. But in the end of the day, content is king, that's what consumers want.

> There have been many examples of people rallying around a "free and open" version of a service. They fail to realize that the end consumer barely cares. Look at voat (Reddit), app.net (Twitter), Diaspora (Facebook), even ycreject.com (Y Combinator) tried to be a thing for a while.

> If someone is able to make it "free and open" while also making it a better experience than the alternative, then it'll be a big success. But so far everyone gets that wrong.

Agreed, but I'd clarify that being open (source, or with little vendor lock-in effects) can certainly make a product better in the eyes for certain market segments. Building a AWS without vendor lock-in sounds like a interesting proposition

Yep it definitely can be, but this just proves the point: not having vendor lock-in is a more useful feature and solves a pain point for people. Imagine if AWS allowed free exfiltration of data and resources (ie eliminated their vendor lock-in), now most people would continue to use AWS.

Thank you for the feedback! I agree and also humbly disagree. Let me please explain.

So the product and service is #1. We have various ideas how to execute this. This doesn't mean we believe we can "beat" Amazon. That isn't our goal at all, nor does it need to be. Our goal is to make it easy and convenient for the average American to shop sustainable friendly products.

That said, because it's worker owned co-op vs an investor owned business there is potential to actually build "a customer centric company" ;) This is bc unlike Amazon we aren't under same economic pressures as a typical VC or investor owned company.

Plus, there is growing concern around income inequality, job security and general democracy both in the work place and in society. Consumers are looking for alternatives. By building this as a worker owned co-op we address all these things and more.

Yes "content" or product/service is king, but by building it as a worker owned co-op we may actually have a market advantage that consumers will be able to see.

>... unlike Amazon we aren't under same economic pressures as a typical VC or investor owned company.

I think it's a high bar to say that (a) the economic pressures faced by a typical VC backed company are the same as those faced by a typical investor owned company, and (b) that Amazon faces the same pressures as a typical investor backed company. Public company investors don't usually expect the kind of meteoric growth that VC's do, and Amazon has a long history of reinvesting in itself to the detriment of their profitability. Not the playbook associated with stereotypical public company economic pressures.

>That said, because it's worker owned co-op vs an investor owned business there is potential to actually build "a customer centric company" ;) This is bc unlike Amazon we aren't under same economic pressures as a typical VC or investor owned company.

You're right. Your proposed worker-owned co-op still has economic pressure; it's just a different type of pressure: It is financially constrained by workers' savings to contribute capital.

I made a previous comment about this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11166080

But that limitation is ok if everyone involved understands how it puts a different financial risk on creating a viable business.

So potential worker/members would need to know what a realistic capital contribution would be. $5000? $10000? And probably some "sweat equity" too. E.g. a programmer that could earn $200k salary from a business maybe needs to work for free to help build the co-cop from nothing.

Therefore, a scenario is the programmers paying $5k into the business and with $0 income for several months to code the website, etc. That would be economic pressure for many people.

Am I way off? What are your ideas to present a palatable (while also realistic) financial scenario to attract co-op members?

Your right about capital being an issue but worker coop members don't work for free, or at least when I worked for Poptel I did not..

You can raise capital via other means and even take investment just have to stay below 50% +1

Not all worker coops have an ante like Mondragon does

It’s hard to argue with your market.

If you look at any value-centered or “conscious” business that is successful (there are many, I used to run a blog on conscious business), they are successful because they offer a competitive product or service (e.g. Method home products, which filled a gap in design centric, non-toxic cleaning products, then landed distribution through Target). The values and org structure exist to support the founders’ or owners’ vision and its operations, but it never creates competitive advantage.

I think there are enough people who care about the organizational structure of the company to make it profitable. My whole family, for example, refuses to shop at Walmart because of their advertising practices and the way they treat workers[0]. The products are the same as at other stores and usually less expensive, yet they will not shop at Walmart.

For this co-op to be successful, it doesn't matter what most people think, just what enough people think.

[0]: We had a family member who worked at Walmart who told us about this.

Totally agree and that's partly why we are building it this way.

Hey thanks for setting this meeting up. I think I finally found my tribe.

Let me introduce myself, firstly I'm a gardener trying to grow my own food (using many principles such as no dig vegetable beds, Permaculture food forestry, systems thinking) and I'm also an engineer / bootstrapper.

If this is of interest to you I have a YouTube channel here: https://youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini

I've RSVP'd and I look forward to speaking with the team and making sure people align on vision and a co-operative path forward!

This is definitely interesting, but I feel it's already somewhat lacking in terms of transparency, which is obviously fundamental to the success of a worker co-op.

From FAQ 3, the event is "free", but on closer inspection, when trying to RSVP, the free tickets are actually all gone, and you're required to make a "contribution" of at least $5 to get a ticket. That's totally cool, I accept that if there were an infinite number of free tickets it wouldn't be manageable, but I can't find any information at all on how many free tickets there were, or how many are available at each tier. (In the nicest possible way of saying this) I haven't heard of you before, and I have no reason to think that the lack of free tickets at this point isn't artificial scarcity to try to coerce me into paying for access to this "free" event. I'd like to think that's not the case, but without a clearer picture of the scale, it's a bitter pill to swallow, and doesn't instil confidence as to the future direction of the project.

Or maybe I'm missing something obvious, I'd be delighted to be wrong here.

You're right! To be honest we got a bit overwhelmed by response and took down the free tickets. It would have been just too many folks for a zoom call. A mistake on my part :(

That said, if you want to stay in touch we created a google form to stay in the loop. Thank you for the feedback and sorry for inconvenience. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdhUEMiZnaWbHAhhioC...

Thanks for the response. I can appreciate the difficulties you must be facing in organising something of this scale, and I'm impressed by how you're handling it so far.

That said, would you be able to clarify how many spaces there are still available on the paid tiers? By choosing to allocate those spaces to people who have $20-$100 to spend to attend a Zoom meeting, I'm sure you appreciate you are prioritising the input of those from higher income brackets over (e.g:) working class people, students, etc. I do think it's important that this is something that is clear to people who would consider giving money to an ideological effort such as this.

You talk a lot about environmentalism, but Americans basically have no idea what Co Ops are for (why isn't the workplace supposed to be democratic like our other institutions?) and if they have any connotations at all, associate with jointly owned shoddy buildings or nostalgic low-tech cottage industry type stuff.

I might give that stuff more billing, especially given that Amazon is aiming to be the GOAT conglomerate that that should scare people just like global warming does.

I think co-op grocers/food stores are pretty well known. My primary grocery store happens to be cooperatively owned and often times bulk sections at co-op food stores outcompete grocery stores.

I'm pretty interested in this type of thing and am concerned with the current state-of-the-art of online shopping surrounding these issues.

One thing that I've been thinking about a lot is the difficulty in defining what "sustainable" means. One point on the page that I saw and liked is this:

> Make it easy for consumers to buy every day, high-quality household goods that are made of the most sustainable materials and in an environmentally conscious way.

I think one of the aspects of "high-quality" goods that should be considered is durability and repairability. The end-of-life treatment of goods is a big problem in our society. I would encourage repairability to be a factor in considering what goods are carried. And beyond that, perhaps something could be done to encourage the repair or reclamation of old products that are no longer wanted, but still have value — though perhaps that would be out of the scope of this project.

Another aspect in which I think you could really improve on is in the area of returns. Where Amazon has been known to destroy, trash, or recycle perfectly good items that are returned, I think having some good, transparent practices here would an important aspect of meeting the goal of sustainability.

I'm excited to see how things progress!

I’m a fan of grove.co for many of the reasons you outline here (though a b-corp not a co-op).

Is this an idea + splash page? Or have you found products and sell something somewhere?

Idea + splash page. This is to bring together interested people to begin organizing a co-op.

Grove is great. We need honestly need more companies like them!

B corps are cool and we consider it, but they aren't really well regulated. What it means to be a B Corp is a bit vague. Being a CO-OP basically bakes into our DNA being "evil"(not exactly, but there are additional measures that will allow for it, ie. being a multi-stakeholder co-op for example which is our plan).

*UPDATE*

Hey everyone! The response to this post has been really great and encouraging. Unfortunately we had to close our general admission bc the response was too much for a zoom call...oops! If you want to stay in touch or interested, but can't buy a ticket at this point please check out our google form. Thank you!! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdhUEMiZnaWbHAhhioC...

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Hey folks, I'm Vivek! I'm excited to share my vision for ending the plastic epidemic and The Sustainable CO-OP Store.

Our vision is to create an Amazon-like online store, along with a physical location, but only for sustainable friendly products.

Instead of building this startup as a traditional investor-backed company, we have decided to create it as a worked-own cooperative. There are many reasons why worker-owned co-ops are amazing. Greater financial equality between all workers, increased business stability, a democratic workplace, community-centric and much more. Still, the thing that I believe is most powerful about a worker-owned co-op is that it's mission-driven over financially driven.

When we complain about how farms use various chemicals in our food or how social media companies are continually trying to get us to use their apps, it's because these companies are under pressure to grow their profits--quarter after quarter, year after year. They have investors who demand growth, which often forces them to compromise their products and services to meet these demands.

Worker-owned co-ops generally don't have those same pressures because the workers, not the investors, own the business. And because the workers get paid a salary or wages, they aren't stressed whether the company grows or not. They instead can focus on whatever they determine is most important, whether that be job security, profitability, the product, or something else.

We have our first general meeting tonight, and we're looking for folks who are passionate about the environment and may be interested in getting involved (it isn't a full-time thing yet). For this idea to succeed, having a few enthusiastic software developers will be essential. If this sounds like you, this meeting will be of interest.

I hope to see you tonight! Thank you

PS. If you want to learn more clearly about the difference between a startup and a co-op, I made a video on YouTube. Enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNJupnV6SgA&t=6s

I'd add some credentials to the landing page so people take you seriously. When you have copy like "I liken it to friends coming together...", my first question is who is "I"? Do they have any chance of pulling this off?

I appreciate the feedback! I guess I was hesitate to put too much attention on me because it's a worker owned co-op but perhaps to kick this project off it would have been okay. If interested, here is my blog https://medium.com/@vivekmgeorge and Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/vivekmgeorge/.

Thanks again :)

Hey Vivek! We are on a similar track with our startup https://www.ecolist.io and if you have time and are open to it, we would like to share some ideas with you! :)

Please RSVP. Perhaps we can chat after or sometime over the next few weeks.

Hi Vivek - Is your packaging also going to be sustainable? What I find annoying is when I spend 3x on a "sustainable" product that comes wrapped in 2 layers of bubble-wrap in a plastic-paper envelope.

Plastic recycling, as I hope we now know, is a full-on scam and a lie. [1] [2]

[1] https://theintercept.com/2019/07/20/plastics-industry-plasti...

[2] https://www.breakfreefromplastic.org/

That's the goal! I hear you about the packaging...uff :(

Yeh the plastic industry seems to have sold the world on a lie.

I've always liked these ideas on paper, but how is this different than other conscious consumerism efforts?

https://qz.com/920561/conscious-consumerism-is-a-lie-heres-a...

And if there isn't a clear legible niche (e.g. Patagonia) what makes someone recognize this?

"They have investors who demand growth, which often forces them to compromise their products and services to meet these demands. Worker-owned co-ops generally don't have those same pressures because the workers, not the investors, own the business"

Yes, but I think a challenge is to be sooo good you outcompete the more extractive store. Some communities (such as gameb) talk about specific areas (e.g. an honest car mechanic network, or a better call center company) - it isn't just about stuff. I feel like I've seen some interesting businesses doing good stuff still under a boring legal structure of a boring S-Corp or LLC (while being informally a cooperative), and arguably evil businesses doing things under the veil of a B-Corp.

You may want to check out what we talk about on http://earth-regenerators.mn.co/ . It's a bit less about conscious consumerism and more about land restoration, commons models, and possibly finding some regenerative business models on the pathway there. Looking for folks who've taken classes from https://www.gaiaeducation.org may also help.

(PS: your post got flagged)

"I'm excited to share my vision for ending the plastic epidemic and The Sustainable CO-OP Store." My initial reading is that you have a vision to end the plastic epidemic as well as ending The Sustainable CO-Op Store.

There's nothing in here about what specifically it is you intend to sell. Everything as long as it isn't plastic? Does Amazon itself not already sell the products you'll have available? Target? Wal-Mart?

Who are the likely customers? Wealthier people with money to burn on more expensive, but eco-friendly products? Is there a plan on how to reach and "intrigue" the target customer group?

Hi Vivek, if you have a lot of response from the tech and engineering side but less so from people who have merchandising, buying, sourcing, operations side of selling physical goods, my good friend in NYC studied sustainable fashion and works in a large fashion retailer in a sourcing and buying role working with external vendors and internal creative and product folks and might be interested. She has a lot to say about working with small brands, sustainable product development, etc and helps them get their products to market daily. If you'd have extra seats for people on that side of the puzzle, let me know.

I like this! When consumers purchase products from a business, the consumers are starting to care about how the revenue dollars are being spent; it's an indirect way for the consumers to help out the environment.

Thank you! Exactly :)

What is this.

I would of been down to order something like a mug to help out , but I can't find anything to buy.

Thank you! This is for our first general event to begin organizing the co-op. If you want to financially support, you can buy a ticket for the meeting tonight via the link.

So is this a store ?

Is the goal to eventually sell stuff ?

Yep. This meeting is to first organize a team and get everyone on the same page. From there we can start working out the details of building.

Looks like the free tier tickets are sold out, but the wording on the page makes it seem like there shouldn't be any gating from signing up on the free level.

Please let me know if it opens up again!

I'm very sorry. We didn't expect this level of response (thank you). If you want to keep touch please fill out this Google Form - https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdhUEMiZnaWbHAhhioC...

But if you aren't interested, I get it. Once again, I apologize.

I'm interested but looks like at this point you have to pay to attend. Seems like a strange model.

If you open up the meeting to more folks without requiring a donation let me know!

There is a $0 registration option

Unfortunately the response was a bit more than we imaged for a zoom call. So we closed the free tickets at this point. That said, if you want to keep touch, check out this survey form here. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdhUEMiZnaWbHAhhioC...

Signups can't really be a Show HN (Show HN is for something else, take a look at https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html), not-signups even less so. You can probably still edit the title.

> I'm excited to invite you to the first general meeting of a new worker-owned CO-OP (cooperative) business aimed at making it easy for the masses to shop sustainable friendly products.

"The masses" is a somewhat dehumanizing phrase.

Great initiative! Need more of these. Sharing with friends.

Thank you!

Isn't that kind of like REI in terms of setup?

REI is a "co-op" but a consumer co-op. This is VERY different unfortunately...yeh a bit confusing I know.

They aren't a worker owned co-op so that means they face the same economic pressures as any traditional investor owned business. They lack most of the amazing aspects of a worker owned co-op that I mentioned.

Anyone created a Cloud Coop?

From the marketing people I worked with, I learned to always ask: "what is the reason to believe?". I don't find anything yet, it sounds too generic like "I want peace in the world" which is great, but not actionable. The "worker owned" part repeated several times sounds like a shot at communisms or kibbutz, that will drive some people away.

Gotcha. You might have point on the marketing stuff. This is literally our first meeting to organize so we need determine all of that as team in the coming weeks and months. Thanks for the input :)

> The "worker owned" part repeated several times sounds like a shot at communisms or kibbutz, that will drive some people away.

...and it will also attract other people, including:

- other coops, that want to support each other

- people who are not happy with the increasing inequality

- customers who want to have the ear of decision-makers within the organization. In a privately owned company the owners are often far removed from the customers - even in a medium sized company. In a coop, the employee that replies to your email has far more power to convey your needs to the rest of the company.

This is not a political debate, just pointing out things that are unclear, missing or potentially alienating many customers.

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