Comment by echelon | Hacker News Reader

Comment by echelon | Hacker News Reader

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> How much more mental gymnastics do we need?

> I am from China and I have family in China.

Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP?

Please realize also that many in the West (myself included) are freaking out about China and are trying to counter its rise. This is a narrative that fits into their world view.

I'm more worried about CCP fascism and hypersonic nukes than I am about climate change.

I'm worried about what happens when Chinese software developers outnumber us, and all of our tech has been cheaply duplicated and sold around the world. When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode?

I'm worried about our companies and politicians adopting capitalism and democracy with Chinese characteristics.

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Edit: downvotes trigger HN's post filter, so I'm including my replies below

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> That doesn't seem to fit the narrative that people have the agency to think differently from the status quo Americans would like to impose upon the world.

Last time I was in China, a good third of the people I spoke in depth with openly discussed the corruption and expressed dissenting views. This was in private, of course.

There were more than a few die-hard pro-CCP folks, but the talk of corruption was far more pervasive.

You're still probably right.

> Is this Great Replacement propaganda?

It does sound a little like it. That's not at all my intention.

I think it's appropriate to worry about a country copying tech that has a much larger, more productive population to sustain growth. Their protectionism doesn't help.

But really this is all rooted in the single-party fascism. I'd be fine if China were a democracy. I might even move there myself.

I don't care about my genes or my race or my progeny. I want the world to grow freer with every passing year. The CCP represents a major stumbling block in my worldview and sense of security.

> You sit down and try to succeed on merit rather than privilege for once in your life

Okay, that's a good point. But I'm working my ass off as it is, so I don't know how much latitude for adjustment I have here.

>Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP?

What if they don't want to? There is a trend in the west that pretends like dissent would overflow in China if it wasn't suppressed, but what if people genuinely actually like the government? That doesn't seem to fit the narrative that people have the agency to think differently from the status quo Americans would like to impose upon the world.

>I'm worried about what happens when Chinese software developers outnumber us

Is this Great Replacement propaganda?

>When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode?

You sit down and try to succeed on merit rather than privilege for once in your life, not unlike the 200-odd countries that aren't superpowers.

> but what if people genuinely actually like the government?

If that were the case then there would be no need for the censorship.

I didn't mean all the people all the time. But this harranguing of any random individual asking them why they aren't criticizing the CCP with every living breath seems to count on the idea that they are afraid to speak up and/or brainwashed with evil oriental commie magic.

There are a couple of paradigm shifts needed.

In mainland China, people value outcome legitimacy rather than procedural legitimacy and freedom of speech. In other words: they care whether the government actually does a good job, rather than whether the procedure through which the government was selected is correct, or whether they could criticize Xi.

How would the government get feedback then if people aren't allowed to criticize? As I said before: one can submit feedback about policy. Just don't go around and insult people. The government monitors social media as well for grievances. At the same time they censor social media to prevent mass unrest, but they take grievances seriously and works to solve them.

Whereas the west has freedom of speech as a core value, mainland Chinese value unity, face, action over talk and freedom from poverty. To them, it's much more important to be able to have a good economic life, than freedom of speech. After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-poor. When I was born, food rationing still existed!

As Kishore Mahbubani, ex-UN Security Council head and ex-Singapore diplomat, said: the CCP is in actuality more like a Chinese Civilization Party. Their goal is to advance the interests of Chinese civilization, not to spread communism world-wide.

China is not facist. Facism means that society is deliberately split up in classes (e.g. races), with one class being seen as inherently superior to other "untermenschen". This is not China. There's no notion that Han is better than Yao, or whatever. Official government policy is to give ethnic minorities preferential treatment, such as easier access to university.

Or maybe you're using "facism" as a generic word for something you don't like? This is an actual question, not a diss.

As for hypersonic weapons: yes escalating weaponry is not good. But on the other hand, the US is not blameless in this: "The US Has No Place in the South China Sea Dispute" https://original.antiwar.com/dave_decamp/2020/07/19/the-us-h... The US isn't supposed to be sailing warships around in the South China Sea in the first place. How about we all calm down and de-escalate at the same time, rather than trying to demonize a single party?

> When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode?

What made America and the west great? It's because of the great many talented individuals, focus on science and technology, investment in education, research and development. Keep doing that. We've been dropping that ball lately, becoming complacent. The west can easily compete with China toe-to-toe if only we get our shit together.

China is not interested in exporting its governance model. It has never done that. There's no evidence it ever will do that. Why should they? It's not in their interest to change others' governance model. China's rise as a superpower is easily the most peaceful one in human history.

China is not an enemy, not a threat. When China and the west come together, the whole world wins.

> The government monitors social media as well for grievances.

I personally know people whose parents were stupid enough to go for such "anonymous grievance boxes" just to get a knock on the door from district committee enforcers the next day.

You don't seem to know anything about modern China if you don't even know that.

> After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-poor. When I was born, food rationing still existed!

> mainland Chinese value unity, face, action over talk and freedom from poverty

If Beijing ever cared about freedom from poverty, China wouldn't be so poor as a result of its actions.

And I am not talking about Mao era here, but very much modern day.

> China is not interested in exporting its governance model. It has never done that.

> It's not in their interest to change others' governance model.

Then, why it is doing it?

Beijing sent armed Maoists to Naxalite insurgency, Indonesian Maoist insurgency, Malaysian Maoist insurgency, Singapore coup attempt, North Korea, Nepal, Burma, Laos, Campuchia, Sri Lanka, and ~10 African countries?

A solid record by any measure.

> I personally know people whose parents were stupid enough to go for such "anonymous grievance boxes" just to get a knock on the door from district committee enforcers the next day.

Okay, do tell. I'm being genuine here.

If those boxes are anonymous, why do they know who sent it?

What were the grievances? Why would they get in trouble?

What did the district committee enforces actually do?

How long ago was this?

> If Beijing ever cared about freedom from poverty, China wouldn't be so poor as a result of its actions.

> Then, why it is doing it?

That's a long list, let me go into a few.

North Korea is not an example of China exporting its governance model. If North Korea actually follows China's governance model it would be far more open than it is today. What happened is that during the Vietnam war, China allied with North Korea to prevent the Americans from setting up a base at the Chinese border. That's not "exporting governance model".

Naxalite: where's the evidence that this insurgency is supported by China. Just because they're Maoist doesn't mean China did this.

What do African countries have to do with this? Are you talking about this "debt trap" thing? China doesn't want African countries to default. China has even provided debt relief this year, without asking for anything in return.

China hasn't fired a bullet across its borders for over 30 years. That's more than I can say about the current hegemon.

Please don't cross into nationalistic flamewar. I respect and am grateful for how much your HN comments have improved over the years, in terms of sticking to the intended use of the site. And I'm aware that you know a lot about these topics. But your posts in this thread are sliding back into the sort of pattern we're trying to avoid here. Please go the other way.

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