It was planned for months, openly on Facebook in plain view of everybody. Remember that when politicians call for more intrusive surveillance in response.
The Feds are starting to roll up high ranking militia members, so hopefully they learned their lesson this time.
That's not really true.
Far-right terror was taken very seriously in 1995 after the Oklahoma City bombing. The FBI hired 500 agents specifically to focus on domestic terrorism [0], particularly the then-new militia movement. Virtually every state and federal law enforcement agency established a domestic terror unit. Through continuous effort they'd pretty much quashed the militia movement by 2004, despite the shift of federal resources to the Global War on Terror post-9/11. However, far-right militias surged again in the Obama years [2].
(Much further back, U.S. Grant used the Army to crack down on the Klan [3]. Unfortunately, his successor Rutherford B. Hayes effectively ended Reconstruction and rolled back much of this progress.)
[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20120210125747/http://news.bbc.c... [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20110623153230/http://www.rickro... [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2012/03/08/148217754... [3] https://www.historynet.com/grant-takes-klan.htm
Far-right terror was taken seriously after the OKC bombing. But the far-right terrorist threat had been steadily increasing for three years at that point. Ruby Ridge and the Waco Siege contributed to a surge in far-right militias and other terrorist groups. It took someone driving a truck bomb and killing hundreds of people (in an attempt to spark a race war) to take far-right terrorism seriously.
The 2017 PBS documentary "Oklahoma City" was my intro to this subject matter [2]. Excellent film, gripping presentation.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#Development
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_(white_supremacist_g...
[2] https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/oklahoma-c...
In other words, taking terrorism “seriously” sometimes is done in ways that involve killing innocent people and inciting more blowback in the long run.
The lessons learned were apparent in the government’s approach to the 2016 wildlife refuge standoff. Rather than dash in guns-blazing, the government simply established a perimeter and waited for the occupiers to run out of Clif Bars. Took the ringleaders into custody with a minimum of force when they attempted to leave. Of the 30-40 occupiers, only one was shot as he reached for his gun. No law enforcement officers were harmed. World of difference compared to Waco, where 4 ATF officers and 82 Branch Davidians were killed.
This is true, but it misses the nuance that the letter ordering him to attend court had the wrong date listed on it. Makes the assault on the family even more egregious.
The same thing happened in the civil rights era. When it looked like things might get serious the .gov caved to the MLK types to prevent the Malcom X types from gaining further sympathy from the masses.
Fast forward to the 1990s and you get the ATF trilogy. Of course the magnitude of the problem was smaller than the KKK so the reaction and adjustments were smaller. On one hand the FBI cracked down on all the extremist groups (cue jokes about how the modern KKK is just a recreation club for FBI agents) but at the same time you'll notice that when the Bundy Ranch rolled around the feds didn't just shoot everyone and botch the thing as they would had they let historical precedent be their guide. Same pattern. Crackdown on the extremists while avoiding pissing off the moderate sympathizers.
Likewise hundreds of cities are reconsidering how they allocate law enforcement and social services resources after the events of this summer while also (recently, like past month) starting to crack down on protests to prevent them from getting fiery. Same pattern.
The overarching theme is pretty clear. The government never takes people's grievances seriously until there's a "real" threat of extremists getting off the porch and causing serious problems with a large body of sympathizers to back them up.
In light of that it'll be interesting to see what if any long term changes come out of the whole capitol thing.
I haven't noticed any gay-marriage terrorists on their porches, and yet here we are. Women-for-equal-pay have not been observed cleaning and oiling their rifles menacingly, and yet the law was mended in their favor. And I don't think Irish or Jewish terrorism was a problem in the US, but their persecution has ended all the same. You're only looking at things that became explosive, so quite naturally you will not find things that were resolved peacefully and/or timely. They still exist though, in fact they may be dominant.
It's a great comment otherwise, I enjoyed the trip down the memory lane. Looking forward to seeing you again.
Both international terrorism (directed at the UK, but sometimes involving direct conflict with the US military) and organized crime-linked terrorism were very big things associated with the Irish in America in the 19th C.
And, on the Jewish side, more recently, Meir Kahane’s Jewish Defense League was a real thing.
GP's point was about how they believe federal law enforcement has reacted to groups that necessarily included violent extremists, as those were the pawns for bargain to offer the opposition while reducing harm to the moderate sympathizers.
Yours appears to be a strawman argument.
Edit: If you think this is untrue, you have an extremely narrow filter bubble.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dhs-domestic-terror-warning-ang...
Look at this case for example. He has left many threatening voicemails to congress members over several years, including while under probation, and the FBI just told him to knock it off without arresting him. So he kept doing it. They only finally arrested him after the terrorist attack on the capitol.
>According to the complaint, Capriotti repeatedly called multiple Congressional offices in Washington, D.C., between October 2019 and January 2020 and left “disturbing, anonymous messages” that often included “profanity along with derogatory remarks concerning the race, religion, political affiliation, or physical appearance” of some members of Congress.
>FBI agents located Capriotti and interviewed him last February, according to the complaint, which states that Capriotti admitted making the calls but insisted he was “just f---ing with them” and “didn’t mean any ill will.”
>The agents advised Capriotti to stop making the calls, but phone records showed he continued to do so between February and November 2020. A series of voicemails Capriotti allegedly made to Congressional offices in November and December were then detailed in the complaint.
https://news.wttw.com/2021/01/12/chicago-heights-man-charged...
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021/1/12/22227466/feds-a...
By adopting words like "terrorism" you're paving the way for an overreaching response from lawmakers and law enforcement -- something that will likely end up being used against a cause you might support, like BLM.
Firstly, nobody was terrorized. No, this wasn't "our 9/11." I doubt it'll even be a topic of conversation in a few years, just like we don't talk about 1983 United States Senate bombing today at all.
I have no doubt a few of the rioters really were planning terrible deeds and they should be prosecuted; the violence and property damage is inexcusable. But most of these people just seem to be caught up in the moment -- taking selfies and LARPing around the capitol after hours.
What we need right now is de-escalation.
This doesn’t seem to be true. Several elected officials have expressed fear they or their family would be harmed by members of the far right, most notably Rep. Pete Meijer (R-MI), who was one of the few house republicans to certify the results of the election:
“I had colleagues who, when it came time to recognize reality and vote to certify Arizona and Pennsylvania in the Electoral College, they knew in their heart of hearts that they should’ve voted to certify, but some had legitimate concerns about the safety of their families,”
He also said “That was what weighed on the colleague in mind’s conscience, and the last thing that that individual said to me, concern about the safety of that individual’s family, if that individual voted to certify the election... That is where the rhetoric has brought us. That is the degree of fear that’s been created.”
In Facebook comments, one rioter wrote: “Congress needs to hear glass breaking, doors being kicked in.” “We get our President or we die,” they added. “NOTHING else will achieve this goal.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/11/people-will-try-to-kill-us-s...
https://www.vox.com/2021/1/13/22229052/capitol-hill-riot-int...
Sure seems like terrorism to me.
Now, do I think we need increased surveillance? Absolutely not, it was largely planned in public on Facebook. We just need an FBI that takes this movement’s threats more seriously. Exposing that some far right elements act like terrorists is one way of calling attention to the seriousness of the problem.
Edit: I also think the appeal that they might somehow treat BLM protestors even worse is not worth considering much. I don’t identify with any “side” that uses the threat of physical violence against elected officials to change their vote, even if they were to do it for a “good cause”. I don’t want that to be an available tool for BLM or anyone either.
You think the defining moment of his presidency is something that he only tangentially had a hand in that resulted in a couple arrests and a stolen podium?
That's a hot take.
The virus is in its own zone as far as memory is concerned. It's been going on for so long that it overshadows Trump to some extent
Trump's approval is not the lowest it's been during his presidency - it was lower in Dec 2017 [0], and even now at 39.2% it's almost twice that of Congress [1] at 20%.
It doesn't seem to have hurt him all that much. If you look at favorability rather than job approval, it even seems to be almost unchanged [2], only having gone from 45% to 43%. And if you give any weight to Rasmussen, they have Trump's total approval going up since the 6th, from 47% to 51% [3]!
[0] https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/
[1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/01/politics/poll-of-the-week-con...
[2] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/poll-trump-a...
[3] https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/tru...
In the Gallup poll it is [0], in the particular weighting and aggregation used by 538 it is not.
> it's almost twice that of Congress
Congress isn't a person, it's an aggregate, for which any voter will not have had a voice in selecting 532 of 535 voting members. Comparison of Congress’s approval ratings to the President’s are meaningless, and only ever resorted to by people trying to make horrendously unpopular Presidents look more popular than they are.
> if you give any weight to Rasmussen,
You probably shouldn't; they've always had a pro-Republican house effect as a pollster matching their editorial tilt, which isn't too worrying, but they’ve pretty overtly gone into hyperpartisan mode since the election.
[0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/328637/last-trump-job-approval-...
I think it would be a stretch to call all the rioters terrorists, but I think a lot of them would fit any reasonable definition and they were well-organized, intentional, and numerous. Even if a terrorist attack is unsuccessful or does not kill or injure a large number of people that doesn't make it not terrorism. And I think there was a real risk that members of Congress could have been kidnapped, injured, or killed if things had gone a little bit differently.
The media is not even handed here.
But I really don't think we need to devolve to whataboutism here. We're talking about the actions of people storming the capitol building, to try and say 'yes well X group of people are also terrorists' is a completely moot point and an intentional deflection.
I'm much more concerned with the media being complicit in downplaying what we both agree is domestic terrorism elsewhere.
I suppose that's a "what about", but I fear the current structures of power colluding to form narratives more than angry trumpers.
1. I don't (personally) agree that the 'black lives matter' protests should be considered as 'terrorism', because fundamentally they began as a protest against the systematic mistreatment of a certain race/demographic of people. While it can be viewed as political, it's not quite the same as 'storming the capital of a country to overturn the result of an election', which is undeniably a political goal. While some BLM rioters eventually did conduct what could be described as terrorist acts, it fundamentally isn't the same thing.
2. You're welcome to disagree on that point, but it's not what's being discussed in this thread.
3. Yes, media overreach is an issue, but it's not the topic of the conversation.
4. I am still sad that people are trying to downplay the issue, and not just because some people don't want to call it terrorism. People saying 'oh in the future it won't even be remembered' etc etc is also problematic as it's downplaying the event itself.
Edit: Added point 2
To compare the two is disingenuous.
[1] https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-vi...
[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/17/boogaloo-st...
This is not about the probability but the outcome at the tail
7% or 3% or 1% is still huge. The right number to use is 0%. Not 1% or 7% Zero. Those protests literally shut down critical stores for people in dire straits. For ex. The only pharmacy near low income seniors with limited motor ability, with the double whammy that public transport also shut down.
Cities on fire every week is not OK especially when the offenders are inmune from law enforcement.
To think that 7% is acceptable smacks of priviledge. Someone is clearly not living in the inner city, and does not know what it means to not own a car when the public transport system is halted and the only supermarket near is razed.
Are you really trying to compare Black Lives Matter to a mass extinction event?
Edit:
Okay, you've massively edited your comment. A single gender reveal party caused more property damage than all the BLM protests combined. I do not get this continued obsession with BLM protests, especially in conversations regarding the insurrection at the capitol this month.
Source? I’m seeing multiple news reports of about $1-2 billion in damages due to the riots.
Unarmed protesters wanted to protest in front of the police station. The police blocked them. The protests grew day by day because the police kept escalating to violence.
Then the police suddenly abandoned the station and the area. The protesters didn't ask for it. The mayor and police chief denied ordering it. The police just went rogue and left the protesters to figure out what to do. They never occupied the police station.
The first shooting was just outside the protest area. People who knew the victim and the suspect said it was a long running feud.
The second shooting was outside the protest area. The victim said he was attacked by white supremacists.
The third shooting was outside the protest area. The victim refused to talk to police. So no one knows who did it.
The last shooting did involve armed protesters working as security guards. It wasn't a case of mistaken identity though. The teenagers drove at the barricades minutes after erratically driving through the occupied park.
Setting aside the notion of gunmen manning barricades on public streets here—the SUV they fired on was, by many reports, a different SUV from the vehicle before.
Regardless, this is still the exact type of incident that they were supposedly protesting against in the first place.
The SUV the guards shot was recorded driving through the park.
Many reports said shots were fired from that vehicle. They didn't find any guns so probably not. Internet detectives decided the shots were fired from a different SUV recorded speeding away afterward. But it was actually recorded speeding toward the area. And people feared getting rammed not just shot.
They were protesting police brutality against peaceful or restrained black people. That isn't exactly like an oncoming SUV.
[1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/07/08/vehicl...
I would want to know why the police didn't set up a safer perimeter or have spike strips. They have resources volunteers don't. But they have a moral duty to protect other people when they reasonably believe lives are in danger. And people there believed their lives were in danger.
What I might say in another situation is irrelevant anyway. Someone can be right for the wrong reasons.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/shooting-at-... https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-rep... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8471219/One-man-dea...
In fact, half of the point of the protests were to protest against that kind of run-of-the-mill, un-notable, indiscriminate application of violence by police.
What about the BLM protesters who attempted to burn down the Portland courthouse with federal officers inside ?
Why is this not actively denounced as terrorism ? https://nypost.com/2020/07/22/portland-protesters-barricade-...
Why would you even try to group those two things together?
How could it possibly be a problem that "the media" doesn't consider those two things equal?
I'm pointing out media hypocrisy, that doesn't mean I'm condoning any violence.
Violence is wrong in support of BLM, it's wrong in support of Trump.
The ends do not justify those means (and in fact are likely to be counterproductive).
[1] ter•ror•ism tĕr′ə-rĭz″əm► n. The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals.
If you would use the definition you wrote here, a lot of things would be considered terrorism. There would probably be more terrorists than non-terrorists in the world then..
But anyway, I think we can agree on the "violence is wrong"-part, and the counterproductive part.
But saying that if any form of violence occured during a protest, then those protests should be considered equal, is, well, I don't even know what to call it; Dishonest?
Now, what I really disagree about is the "I'm pointing out media hypocrisy"-part. I really don't think you are doing that, I think that what you are doing is, complaining that "the media" seems to agree more with me than with you on this issue, and then phrasing it like your point of view is objectively correct.
That makes a significant difference.
On one side, the Right's movement against the capitol was specifically targeting politicians. This movement affected a priviledged political class and the people that they employ.
In the other extreme, the BLM movement against (x) targeted (y) . This movement affected seniors, students, women, owners , employees, blacks, latinos, indiscriminately.
This is the crux of the issue. X and Y are quite random and thus lend themselves far easier to the classic definition of terrorism
Compare that with the tiny Capitol Police force guarding the Capitol building while one of the most important state functions was in progress, with much of the executive branch succession and the legislative branch in attendance. National Guard troops were denied both in advance and for a while during the ensuing riot, citing concerns about “the optics.”
Any meaningful discussion of protest response and overreach, potential or actual, has to account for that disparity.
As you said, some rioters were “planning terrible deeds,” which increasingly clearly means “kidnapping or executing congresspeople and the VP for not keeping DJT in power.” This raises the issue to the level of sedition (organized incitement to rebellion) and insurrection (actual acts of violence against the state or its officers).
Maybe “terrorism” doesn’t broadly apply here, and it’s better to refer to the capitol invaders as “insurrectionists.” Trump, the other government supporters of the protest, and any private backers should be labeled as “seditionists.” I am less likely to push for a “terrorism” label if I can be confident that the other two labels will be applied and prosecuted as such.
Even if it was misplaced, isn't that a better opening mindset?
Then when things began to escalate, calls for National Guard assistance were denied by the Pentagon for at least a full hour. In a rapidly-evolving situation, especially when the Capitol building has been breached and it takes time to summon the troops since they weren’t on standby, that is an eternity.
They had homemade bombs. They had firearms. They had bags full of restraints.
I can count six DC-area thousand+ employee firms that provided grief counseling in response. And as a reminder, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism - even if a subset of people implemented violence with political ends in mind (breaking in, beating innocent people, attempting to take hostages, all in the name of overturning a legitimate election), at the very least, that subset meets the precise definition of "terrorists."
> No, this wasn't "our 9/11."
The Capitol was breached as part of a coordinated and failed plot. Last time this happened was 1814.
> I have no doubt a few of the rioters really were planning terrible deeds, and the violence and property damage is inexcusable.
Yes, using the rest of the people in the crowd as human shields, but nonetheless:
> But most of these people just seem to be caught up in the moment -- taking selfies and LARPing around the capitol after hours.
This isn't a valid defense to any crime literally ever.
The Pulse nightclub is what real terrorism looks like. And the Christchurch shootings. And 9/11.
The storming of the capitol was not at all similar.
Sure, there were a lot of play acting idiots hanging on and joining in, like that girl who seemed somehow incensed that she got pepper sprayed when "all she'd done" was "shown up for the revolution and trespassed on The Capitol", but not all of them were just clueless morons.
Some of them had plans and intent that would 100% be called "terrorism" if they were of middle eastern descent, and should 100% be called terrorism even though they're home-grown American citizens.
It seems pretty obvious to me the purpose was to intimidate elected officials in some misguided attempt to prevent them from completing their constitutional duties. That is literally terrorism.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/terrorism
>Terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.
> The Pulse nightclub is what real terrorism looks like. And the Christchurch shootings. And 9/11.
> The storming of the capitol was not at all similar.
Interesting. What makes 9/11 a terror attack that doesn't similarly make the Capitol Insurrection one? Because they both left a similar imprint on the people, and they were both implemented by groups with extremist ideologies and political objectives in mind.
I note that you tossed the reference to the definition of terrorism and focused on grief counseling. Interesting decision.
Calling both kinds of people terrorists feels sort of like calling the passengers of the 9/11 flights terrorists too
> Calling both kinds of people terrorists feels sort of like calling the passengers of the 9/11 flights terrorists too
I'm straining my neck to understand how you equated the litany of protesters who broke into the Capitol building (excluding the terrorists who came equipped with pipe bombs, tactical gear for hostage-taking, and who planned the insurrection for months) with innocent bystanders on doomed flights on 9/11.
You're talking about people who wear tactical gear to go to the corner store. Who carry guns and flex-cuffs because they are desperate to be some kind of "big man".
Probably a handful of them intended to actually "do" something.
But mostly they just milled about looking like penguins escaping the zoo.
The relationship with the innocent bystanders is the same that I said before -- intent. The people who went to protest outside are protestors. The people who went to break into the capital and steal, march, whatever, are insurrectionists. The people who went with weapons are terrorists.
It's already accurate to call them insurrectionists, why add controversy to it by calling them terrorists?
Didn't say that.
> The relationship with the innocent bystanders is the same that I said before -- intent. The people who went to protest outside are protestors. The people who went to break into the capital and steal, march, whatever, are insurrectionists. The people who went with weapons are terrorists.
You didn't understand me.
> It's already accurate to call them insurrectionists, why add controversy to it by calling them terrorists?
Please re-read.
The Capitol was breached as part of a coordinated and failed plot. Last time this happened was 1814.
But while all of those are incidents, attacks, etc., I think the distinction (which I failed to highlight) is that 1814 and 2021 involved a complete overrun of the building rather than a localized incident or intrusion. Doesn't make much of a practical difference in the end, though.
We still talk about the Clinton impeachment today, and the acts that precipitated it. Students of history still study the Andrew Johnson impeachment. You're being naive if you think an unprecedented, record, second impeachment of a president will be forgotten that quickly.
What they can't survive is groups of thugs that don't like the result of an election, and go off to physically prevent its results from being honored. That is unprecedented.
And yet, here we are, democracy intact.
The most dangerous thing you can do now is to think this is behind you and from here on in everything is normal. It isn't and it probably won't be for some time. If you manage the next two transfers of power at the end of election cycles without further mishap I'd say that you can say democracy is intact. Until then all bets are off.
Edit: I wished I could locate the article, so far no luck.
edit2: finally found it in my history, this article was from 11 November 2020, and very prescient:
https://indica.medium.com/i-lived-through-a-coup-america-is-...
The latest major failed coup that I can remember would be the 2016 Turkish coup d'état attempt, and the effect it had on the country is well known. The general consensus internationally seems to be that the efforts by their government to stamp out their "terrorists" has been a bit of an overreaction, even if literal tanks was involved. The censorship machine in particular has been quite overreactive.
One can really hope that the US democracy manage a more appropriate reaction that is more proportional to the threat.
He also claims that Trump is refusing to leave and is leveraging the military to facilitate that. That's bunk.
What's mostly bunk here is that you think that this is behind you and I am not willing to accept that until we have seen one, and preferably two transfers of power without mishap, preferably in both directions.
Claiming there was fraud in the past election, that the election was stolen, or that the results should not have been certified is not mobilizing the military. It's not even illegal, it's part of the constitutional process.
Hell, some Democrats did exactly that to Trump in 2017. Even the Democrat Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi herself disputed the results in 2005 yet she now claims that anyone else repeating her own words is an insurrectionist.
When that belief is shattered, and people no longer believe in a peaceful transfer of power, you get violent transfer of power.
I think it's far too early to make such a claim. Wait till 2022, or 2024, or 2028. This genie is not going back in the bottle without putting up a fight - not while its being egged on by opportunistic mainstream politicians.
> And yet, here we are, democracy intact.
You keep cutting off quotes without including the relevant details. You need to stop doing that. The original quote:
> What they can't survive is groups of thugs that don't like the result of an election, and go off to physically prevent its results from being honored. That is unprecedented.
The last part of that sentence you cropped (emphasized by me) didn't come to pass because it was interrupted by Capitol contingency plans and Shelter In Place protocols, among other things. It very well could've been successful; we're lucky to not know that outcome.
It's self-evidently anti-Democratic. The last time this nation got into a dispute over an election where the minority decided to just set it aside and not submit to the result, resulted in the bloodiest revolution to date.
People are fools to think this is all just suddenly over now that Trump is gone and big-tech de-platformed one tiny social media platform.
It's happening just like it was always going to, like clockwork. Americans aren't out of this yet.
2009 reporting: https://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/15/extremism.report/
2012 update: https://www.wired.com/2012/08/dhs/
2017 update: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/0...
2020 update: https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2020/07/21/right-wing-terrorism...
[1] https://apnews.com/article/arrests-florida-nancy-pelosi-capi...
[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2021/01/14/judg...
In my city, BLM demonstrators - or at least people purporting to be part of BLM - declared several city blocks an autonomous zone. The zone's security forces subsequent killed several people (among them, ironically, an unarmed black 16 year old). It took the city 3 weeks to clear out this zone, and it was done without lethal force.
By comparison, the people occupying the Capitol were removed in a matter of hours including employing lethal force.
The Capitol protests were met with more leniency than some BLM demonstrations, but less than others.
That's lethal force in self-defense, not lethal force to clear out the protest.
There seem to be a lot of people who are absolutely certain that the security forces were responsible for this.
The police aren't among their number, however, since they haven't detained, arrested or charged anyone.
There was also another killing in the zone that was, iirc, erroneously blamed on the security forces.
> According to an accounting by the American Bail Coalition, verified by The Fact Checker with a review of Hennepin County jail records, all but three of the 170 people arrested during the protests between May 26 and June 2 were released from jail within a week. Of the 167 released, only 10 had to put up a monetary bond to be released; in most cases, the amounts were nominal, such as $78 or $100. In fact, 92 percent of those arrested had to pay no bail — and 29 percent of those arrested did not face charges. (The American Bail Coalition is a trade group of insurance companies who profit from underwriting bail bonds.)
[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/politics...
"Cliven Bundy and sons cleared in case of 2014 armed standoff, a major defeat for the federal government that critics fear will empower far-right militia groups"
[1]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/08/bundy-family...
> The judge declared a mistrial in December and ruled on Monday that prosecutors could not retry the case, arguing that the US attorney’s office had willfully withheld evidence and engaged in misconduct.
He had no intention of complying or paying any of his bills.
The FBI, hardly a bastion of left-wingers, has been warning for decades that white supremacists have been attempting to infiltrate police and the military.
When polled 25% of active-duty military personnel say they know at least one.
Tell that to Ulysses S. Grant.
I might be cynical, but I think that will work just about as well as the first impeachment.
Here’s a post that basically says that. I think someone posted it here.
https://arcdigital.media/qanon-woke-up-the-real-deep-state-7...
So indeed. The real question is why was there seemingly no preparation to handle it.
Clearly some of the Establishment wanted it to succeed.
Or massively & publicly fail... if we’re trading conspiracy theories.
January 6 was either luck and foolery or clever planning.
A year ago I would have said luck but the weekend before super Tuesday last year with the centrists clearing the lane for Biden all within 36 hours convinced me there's capable skilled political actors who can orchestrate things.
January 6 was perhaps the least harmful version of the storm possible. The people there, they are the kinds of people that follow crazy conspiracies and do mass shootings, tens thousands of them. They've been antagonized and fueled this antigovernment narrative, some of them for almost 30 years by the shock jock grifters.
They got their storm, the pitchfork moment and relatively little violence happened, it lasted just an afternoon, then they left, not returning the next day and now people are being arrested in a way that doesn't martyr them as revolutionaries or put them into any kind of overarching constructive narrative.
They weren't lined up against the wall and taken care of like revolutionaries but instead individually arrested like common criminals. There was no clear "deep state" repression or large arrests to stoke the conspiracies of prison camps etc.
The storm happened. It was a dud. Afterwards the conspiracy social media accounts were denouncing the Republican party. Almost like the Republicans were able to shake off this toxic part of their coalition in the exchange.
This is an extremely favorable outcome for the establishment. They even got to shut down a bunch of the biggest troublemakers in the process. So really I don't know what to think. Brilliant execution or dumb luck, maybe a bit of both...
This is no joke—one of the rioters who made it to either the House or Senate floor was carrying a sign with a vague message about saving the children, while another one—the one who faced off with heroic Capitol Police officer Eugene Goodman—was wearing a “Q” hoodie.
It’s very strange to consider that some 4chan troll had this impact on history.
To your point, I think it’s worth considering all the potential outcomes:
1. Harm coming to any of the elected officials in the Capitol that day 2. A bloodbath on the Capitol steps on live television 3. Chaotic scenes of men in pelts occupying the Senate floor followed by the resumption of normal business that evening 4. A large armed presence with physical barriers and riot squads surrounding the Capitol
Obviously in retrospect we would take #4, and that’s what we’ll get for the inauguration. But #3 was obviously the second best choice on the table, and potentially the best if you want #4 to look legitimate, especially after about half a year of anti-police narrative.
I'm sure we all know a few people who have slipped into sheer lunacy down internet rabbit holes and seem to more or less be literally insane from the various wild stories.
The best I can imagine is for it to occupy the same fringe space as other wild conspiracies from the grifters like David Icke and Alex Jones.
These people will always exist in society but they should be a small enough group that we aren't forced to deal with them as a political force.
We shouldn't have to spend time, for instance, showing how Vincent Fusca isn't the secret alias of a JFK Jr faked death... it's such a waste of public engagement.
It's hard to overstate how poorly they managed this. This is something a special investigation should be commissioned out by congress/the DOJ.
[1] https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867532070/trumps-unannounced-...
It was incredible to see so few Capitol police guarding the capitol. Further, the fact that they didn't employ things like tear gas sooner was incredible. They just sort of let the rioters through the weak barriers they setup.
Security HAD to have known this was coming. This wasn't some secret plot. I knew this was coming just because I like to keep tabs on what the trump supporters are saying. It was all over the reddit knockoff (win).
"Not just a good idea... It's the law."
It hasn't been invoked without state/local request since Kennedy.
Part of the answer that I am surprised you haven't been given yet is that there is an ongoing infiltration of the police forces in this country by far right wing activists. I mean, Exhibit A is the two off-duty cops from (I think) one of the Carolinas that were present in the actual riot. Here is a think piece [0] that has links to sources. I would not be surprised at all to learn that there were people in the Capitol Police itself who were sympathizers.
[0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidd...
(and besides, there were a good number of people with guns at the protest. And some others brought pipe bombs. Thankfully neither ended up being a factor but no one would have known that at the time)
And again: if you have the support of the police (and potentially also the armed forces) it’s all pretty moot anyway.
Or at least that's the common interpretation of QAnon ramblings.
But the point is that there wasn't any centralised leadership plotting this. There was some groups (who did have weapons) who were absolutely planning this, but the protestors in general was much more decentralized in purpose and method.
Perhaps "seal them in, turn on gas" was a figurative way of saying "trap them and kill them". Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/conspiracy...
FBI charging documents do make references to the telecommunications of the OK defendants, where they are trying to trap and gas congress people under the capitol.
Neither the FBI nor Capitol Police has made claim that any lethal gas was present, period. Not in possession of "Oath Keepers" or otherwise. Not in "underground tunnels" or anywhere else.
No reputable news agency seems to be claiming thus, either.
So, the burden is on the claimant to show that this isn't pure narrative fantasy.
Surely you are not conflating quotes from peaceful demonstrators against (alleged) election fraud, with militants trying to violently overthrow the government?
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IKWa_6...
Because despite their public rhetoric and willingness to carry guns when they don’t expect law enforcement opposition, they realized that their only chance of success at the Capitol was to not be treated by law enforcement the way that law enforcement (including the Secret Service) would treat a visibly-armed mob surrounding the Capitol during proceedings (which include Secret Service protectees).
“Realized that the likely law enforcement stance likely at the Capitol would make visibly carrying a firearm increase their personal risk rather than their effectiveness” is probably more accurate.
- Overcorrection: law enforcement had come under fire for using excessive force against protests and they erred on the other side.
- Conspiracy: the security state is firmly under the control of the pro-Trump faction, who (incorrectly) thought they could make Trump president for life once the Q Shaman took the Senate.
- Conspiracy: the security state is firmly under the control of the anti-Trump faction, who (correctly) thought that letting the protest go too far would be politically devastating for their enemies, and would provide the hook for passing new security laws.
- Incompetence: America can't protect its capitol for the same reason it can't distribute a vaccine, build railways or put a man on the moon.
Like the song says: "Some of those who join forces, are the same who burn crosses."
The hypocrisy from both sides is astonishing and the reason why cops can kill whoever they feel like: half the country will cheer them on because that {anarchist,nazi} deserved it. I find it sickening that I share a citizenship with blood thirsty savages with no concept of empathy.
At the capital, that also seems to me like a protest that got out of hand.
In each case, the opposing side seems convinced of much more malicious intent. I think that is the worst part - everyone is deeply offended when their opposition does X, but they support their own flavor of X when done by their side.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/why-dhs-failed-to-wa...
Democrats are seizing upon the opportunity created by this incident to permanently silence their opposition and attempt to cement long-term political power. A former Facebook official has even publicly suggested that cable companies banish conservative news networks, and that Facebook and YouTube expel conservative influencers from their platforms, in reaction to the incident [2].
Attempting to silence and ostracize vast swaths of the population seems like it might backfire in pretty dramatic fashion. Even Jack Dorsey acknowledged that we had entered into dangerous territory when Twitter blocked Trump and the rest of big tech killed Parler, and he seemed to suggest that the only long-term solution was decentralized social media [3] (something I have been saying since they did this).
In any event, we are certainly in for a wild ride over the next few years. American society is cracking at the seams, and our “leaders” and financially-incentivized media companies seem to be actively encouraging it.
[1] https://www.oecd.org/agriculture/never-waste-a-good-water-cr...
[2] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/former-facebook-offic...
[3] https://twitter.com/jack/status/1349510769268850690?s=21
If you picture a Venn diagram, there's a significant overlap in Republicans, the insurrectionists, QAnon / Pizzagate types, Blue Lives Matters, the police, and nazis / white supremacists.
“Terrorism” isn't an actual crime you can be charged for regarding acts within the US (terrorism outside the US is a specific federal crime, as is material support for terrorism—the latter of which references knowing support for a wide range of crimes under the ambit of terrorism, a number of which seem not implausible to be justifiably charged against participants in the capitol insurrection, such as conspiring to kill or kidnap the President, Vice President, any member of Congress, etc.)
> If this becomes our new bar for terrorism charges then don’t be surprised when you wind up on a no fly list and get a knock on your door after attending a protest.
The “no-fly” list doesn't require being charged with anything, anyhow, much less “terrorism” specifically,
Sounds like a case is being made for it, that’s what I’m concerned about. Those laws will be permanent and will continue to creep their way into daily life.
People have been called terrorists for domestic acts for decades without any effort at legislation to make that a specific chargeable crime, and nothing in the way people are referring to the insurrectionists at the Capitol as domestic terrorists is any different.
It’s kind of like asking why didn’t the Russian police make efforts to stop a KGB assassination.
I mean do we really have to ask why? Isn’t it more relevant just to ask who knew about the attacks and kick them to the curb either for being astronomically incompetent, or either passively or actively assisting the attack?
The constitutionality of "future-effective" pardons is in question. There's also the question of if those pardons will even be issued (does he care enough).
1. The Capitol police are used to dealing with large protests. They happen frequently in DC, especially in and around the capitol. So they may have unfortunately assumed that there is no reason to think this protest would be different, and thus not prepared properly
2. They assumed that a pro-Trump, QANON crowd would be pro-police. This is probably not a bad assumption, some of the people were waving blue lives matter flags etc. If they assumed that, they might have assumed that they would not break the law and were under-prepared.
Another plausible explanation could be large portion of the officers were sympathetic to the cause, but I'm not sure I have seen any evidence of that yet.
The discussion here has focused on the shutdown of Parler, both because the demographic leans right and because tech people feel more comfortable talking about data access and civil liberties than about political violence.
In the rest of society, I assure you, the laser focus of discussion is absolutely about the act itself, and the response to it, and questions about the likelihood of it happening again. The stuff about Parler is a side show for the most part.
[Can you fine folks in California vote out Feinstein? She's long past her best-used-by date]
There is plenty of evidence that the GREAT LEADER tried to overturn elections. If the Congress fails to impeach him it would imply the Congress is not a strong and relevant institution anymore and what the GREAT LEADER failed at someone else would succeed in future. Also, no point blaming FBI here as they were merely pen pushers, their bosses and Congress from which derive legitimacy are far more incompetent and responsible for this mess.
Cato Institute (Libertarian/Conservative think tank) analyst David Bier has a timeline here. The Great Leader Supreme had called for this rally in early December and had since used violent language asking folks to move to DC on December 6th.
https://twitter.com/David_J_Bier/status/1351552702032056328?...
Here are some quotable quotes.
> 12/19: Trump announces the Jan. 6th event by tweeting, “Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!” Immediately, insurrectionists begin to discuss the “Wild Protest.” Just 2 days later, this UK political analyst predicts the violence
> On Dec. 29, the FBI sends out a nationwide bulletin warning legislatures about attacks
> 1/1: Trump tweets the time of his protest. Then he retweets “The calvary is coming” on Jan. 6!” Sounds like a war? About this time, the FBI begins visiting right wing extremists to tell them not to go--does the FBI tell the president?
>1/5: Trump tweets at various law enforcement, intelligence, and military agencies that he supposedly oversees about the threat from “Antifa.” At the same time, a VA FBI Office warns of a “war” at the Capitol from the far right starting the next day.
> 1/6, 12:00-12:17pm: Trump begins his speech. At 12:17, he says that he will march with the rioters to the Capitol to demand the election be overturned.
> "After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. We’re going walk down to the Capitol" - Donald J. Trump - Jan 6 2021
> "We are going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue and we're going to the Capitol and we're going to try and give weak Republicans the pride and boldness that they need to take back our country... So let's walk down Pennsylvania Ave" https://youtu.be/ipTSkxiToDE
Most terrorists are idiots because most people who are not idiots are not terrorists.
Aside from 9/11 none of them have operated successfully in the US and your domestic terrorism has mainly been perpetrated by individuals or very small one off groups of just 2 or 3.
The Provisional IRA ran fundraising operations in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORAID
On average a terrorist would be smarter than the average person. Terrorists are highly motiviated individuals, they can deeply understand an ideology and they activity learn/train in specialized skills. Compared to the average person their IQ would be 20 points higher.
Being a terrorist isn't easy. It's not a job for everyone.
Because the stupid ones get killed/thrown into jail
Looking at what motivated most of the Capitol insurrectionists does not support this claim. They are seemingly unable to distinguish reality from obvious propaganda or wild conspiracy theories.
Pick one