Calling Finland socialist invalidates your whole post.
No wonder there are so many twitter tankies when the right has been spending years saying that communism == free healthcare.
If one considers "Capitalism" and "Socialism" as the two extremes of an economic organization continuum (which is reasonable), Finland is indeed "more socialist" (or better yet, less capitalist) than the US.
However, no European country is socialist in that sense. They have a lot of state involvement, or other public institutions, but they do have private property especially for means of production. That’s all there is to it, and calling Finland socialist seems rather inappropriate to Europeans. Indeed, to describe these different systems, other names are used, for example social democracy, or social market system etc.
For Americans, socialism is just the opposite of capitalism in every particular dimension, not just means of producing. So you can be more socialist in healthcare and so forth, even by having just more state control of things that are still privately owned.
Neither is wrong. It is a semantic misunderstanding.
Americans convey a lot of meaning by using single words. For example, just yelling socialism can now bring forth associations of all kinds, from Sweden to Stalin. Political discourse seems highly polysemic.
Europeans here are to some degree confused. It is not easy to keep up with the context of what socialism all means in the US, and how that meaning constantly shifts and gets new nuances.
But the vividness of it all is linguistically rather interesting.
Anyhow, no one is inherently wrong here.
I would however mention that we converse in English, on a US website. So there is that.
Take e.g. healthcare. You can have all private healthcare (capitalist), a public and private sector coexisting (mixed), or exclusively public provider (socialist).
And that's just a sector. You can have socialist healthcare but capitalist manufacturing. Every economy is mixed, but it can balance to one side or the other.
(btw, all modern economies tend to be capitalist, but social democracies in Europe are definitely less capitalist than the US)
France for example, has mostly public funding, relatively heavy regulation (prices are fixed), but practice remains mostly private (though mixed in hospitals).
Switzerland has mostly private funding, even heavier regulation (insurance is mandatory and you can't be refused for pre-existing conditions, for example), and most practice is private (some public hospitals).
The big elephant in the room in US healthcare is that funding is 50/50, yet you can only benefit from the public part by being old or extremely poor.
If your definition of socialism is that absolutely all sectors of the economy are non-privately owned, then even places like Cuba don't qualify.
If your definition of capitalism is that absolutely all sectors of the economy ARE privately owned, the U.S. isn't a capitalist country.
they are at odds.
currently most nations have capitalism, often with some social policies in place (mainly to prevent uprisings).
They do coexist is most countries, just in different sectors. When a country collectively owns most of the healthcare means of production and protects it by law (e.g. by requiring emergency ambulances to go to public hospitals), how is that capitalism?
The central philosophy is capitalism sure isn't competition. It's the accumulation of wealth. It's usually accomplished by taking it from those who create it. Reducing competition enhances that accumulation, so effectively competition is the enemy of capitalism.
Exactly. And I believe that the fact i have to explain this constantly is due to the very good PR of capitalism. "Capitalism is just free markets". No, it is not. Markets are not free, and capitalism needs more than "reasonably free markets", they need protection of wealth, no matter how much.
What about the other extreme (apparently equally ideal) case of a capitalist state in which every single person controls an equal share of the market? Doesn't that sound the least bit socialist to you?
The real difference between capitalism and socialism is that capitalism requires voluntary action whereas socialism embraces compelled action. Socialist "cooperation" and "coming together to solve problems" are euphemisms for a politically powerful group to harness the productive output of the governed for its own purposes, without regard to if the perceived problems or the perceived solutions are real or not. Unless, of course, true socialist policy allows dissenters to opt-out of participation, in which case I withdraw my characterization. Assuming I'm right, I find the notion of "cooperate or else" far less appealing or moral than capitalism with all of the competition that comes with it.
Finally socialism doesn't eliminate competition... it only moves it from the marketplace to the seat of government. There is no grand collective, there is no "public good": there are individuals with differing beliefs, interests, and objectives. Once you put sufficient power in the government: the most ambitious individuals will compete for privileged positions within political movements rather than businesses, political movements will compete with alternative political movements for the reigns of government. Socialism doesn't remove fundamental human desires for prestige and power, it only redirects the energy into the mechanisms of state; and no that's not necessarily a benefit to the poor, or the underprivileged, or any other banner of victimization that you might fly to justify that state. The inability of a government program to fail means that the real world effectiveness any given government program (assuming that it's even a "right program") is secondary to its ability to attract political support. In capitalism, the voluntary aspect allows for failure if the business isn't producing the product efficiently or it isn't producing something that someone else actually wants or needs.
This is unsubstantiated in that it posits the "politically powerful" as having nothing but their own interests in mind. Ignoring the possible retort I could make that then interests of the politically powerful can not only coincide with the will of the people but also be the will of the people - reformation would remove a significant monetary interest which is exposed time and time again behind the politically powerful. The drive to be politically powerful is thereby lessened, or at least changed.
>The real difference between capitalism and socialism is that capitalism requires voluntary action whereas socialism embraces compelled action.
There's plenty of scholarly work both from libertarian socialism, anarchism and defences of socialism from liberal principles; I'd recommend G.A. Cohen on this point.
> Socialism doesn't remove fundamental human desires for prestige and power, it only redirects the energy into the mechanisms of state
It's worth questioning to what extent fundamental human desires really are so fundamental, isn't it? I'm also not convinced prestige and power are bad things; arguably, that drive is how we have democracy in the first place, never mind the American revolution.
>and no that's not necessarily a benefit to the poor, or the underprivileged, or any other banner of victimization that you might fly to justify that state
There's a whole area of philosophical and economic research dedicated to what extent this is a good question - distributive justice and the theory of exploitation. If the only argument is that it's "not necessarily" the case, we'd have just as much of a case against some forms of markets in that they may satisfy consumer preferences as they create those preferences, not to other advantages.
> In capitalism, the voluntary aspect allows for failure
Democracy also allows for failure if the people do not see their will adequately reflected.
The good old 'those noble and good hearted revolutionaries get to be the politically powerful and the "will" of the plebs better align with theirs, or else...'
In the end, there is only IngSoc!
But only those who have capital get to participate (and even then the system is antagonistic between traders. everyone is trying to extract maximum value). Everyone else is forced into slavery (in everything but name) or left to die on the streets. Your value, as a person, is literally defined by the amount of money you have. If you have none, you are none.
> capitalism requires voluntary action whereas socialism embraces compelled action
This is an illusion. Under capitalism, you can choose to starve, sure. But what choice is that? When your value as a human being is tied to a monetary competition, you are either rich and alive or poor and struggling to survive.
Maybe people should be compelled? Any and all forms of government are essentially that, a force that compels people to behave in certain ways (under democracy, it's people compelling each other). Usually to do no harm as a baseline for civil society. Is that not a desirable quality of human civilization - people compelling each other to do good, or at least do no harm?
> euphemisms for a politically powerful group to harness the productive output of the governed for its own purposes, without regard to if the perceived problems or the perceived solutions are real or not.
Funny, because that's how I see capitalism. The capital elite (who own most capital) force those who don't to work for them (because their value as people is tied to their wealth which they can't survive without) and then barrage them with endless advertisements for consumer products scientifically engineered to be as addicting and rapidly obsolete as possible while offering little actual utility.
> Socialism doesn't remove fundamental human desires for prestige and power, it only redirects the energy into the mechanisms of state
Neither does capitalism. There the energy is directed into profit maximization at all cost and with limited liability for the consequences. And when costs are considered, a money-less person has zero value and is completely ignored.
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It's an interesting discussion. Yes I'm caricaturizing. I'm not a communist, nor completely opposed to capitalism. There's merit in what you say. But just like with communism, we can't look at the idealized version. Capitalism has given us a lot. But it's also destroying the planet, which we didn't know about until fairly recently in civilized history.
Ideally we'd move competition up to a planetary level where we all work together to colonize space. There it probably causes the least harm.
That's also what "market socialists" believe, but still they are very different.
The central underpinning of capitalism is the protection of personal wealth, ad infinitum. Thereby allowing capitalists a.k.a. billionaires to exist.
I'll grant you, the communist-leaning powers did lose the civil war in 1918 though.
Yes.
> Healthcare is free.
Not quite, but close. There's a token payment for using the services. Prescription meds are covered when they go over ~€500/year. Social services will cover for you if you can't pay.
> Housing is free. Water is free. Electricity is free. Internet is free.
No, unless you have no property (you need to sell or lose everything first) and no income, in which case the social services covers the basic necessities for you: housing, water, electricity, even internet access are considered basic necessities.
> Convicted criminals can still vote. All males are drafted into the army.
I don't see what either of these has to do with capitalist/socialist.
It is of course true that a Social Democracy is not a fully socialist society, but that discussion was already had last century during the Revisionismusdebatt kicked off by Eduard Bernstein in 1896.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists#M...
Also note that this meaning of term 'socialist' is rather archaic (and not in opposition to term 'capitalist'). The modern meaning of 'socialism' is to describe economic system in countries of soviet communist bloc.
Depends on the country: The parties are still called 'socialist' to this day in Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, France, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Spain.
> The modern meaning of 'socialism' is to describe economic system in countries of soviet communist bloc.
Quote German Wikipedia on Sozialismus[1], which views Sozialdemokratie as one of its branches:
> Demzufolge wird auch grob zwischen den Ausrichtungen von Kommunismus, Sozialdemokratie oder Anarchismus differenziert.
> Hence one differentiates roughly between the strains of Communism, Social Democracy or Anarchism.
Quote Wikipedia on Sozialdemokratie[2]:
> Sozialdemokratie ist eine politische Bewegung und politische Ideologie der Linken, die sich selbst – mal mehr, mal weniger stark ausgeprägt – als Form eines reformistischen demokratischen Sozialismus betrachtet.
> Social Democracy is a political movement and political ideology of the left, which views itself - sometimes to a greater, sometimes to a lesser extent - as a form of reformist democratic socialism.
Quote Hamburger Programm, the German SPD's party platform[3]:
> The end of the soviet type state socialism did not disprove the idea of democratic socialism but it clearly confirmed the orientation of social democracy towards core values. In our understanding democratic socialism remains the vision of a free and fair society in solidarity. Its realization is a permanent task for us. The principle for our actions is social democracy.
[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialismus
[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialdemokratie
[3] https://www.spd.de/fileadmin/Dokumente/Beschluesse/Grundsatz...
That's hard to believe. Can I just go there (as an EU citizen) and mine bitcoins for free?
I've yet to study the exact nature of the EU with regards to social support, so I don't know if you could just come here and collect welfare.
Everyone not participating in the capitalist economy (by owning business or being employed at one) is essentially a government/military reserve employee on indefinite paid leave receiving a budget that covers virtually all living expenses to quite a reasonable standard. And it's baseline, every citizen eligible, other obligations withstanding. You'd have to really make a mess of your life to not live comfortably.
The only downside is, if there's war, I have to give my life for the country. Which, given Finland's history (defensiveness and neutrality), seems like a good deal to me. Most men get actively recalled to military trainings; I've personally been exempt during peacetime.
I could indeed mine bitcoins for free. But that'd be a gross misuse of my time and resources. I'd rather create something meaningful than literally waste electricity just to prove that I have it (the idiotic quality of proof-of-work cryptocurrency).
Does this definition include people who actively refusing to be employed, or is there any kind of law obligations to work?
The "catches" to everything being free: - Cannot save any money whatsoever. As with all government budgets, what you don't spend is deducted from the next check. - Can receive a maximum of around $50/month from anywhere else. Anything above that is deducted from the next check. - Cannot own much property. They want you to sell everything and live off that first. - Have to report all your assets and provide bank statements to all accounts. - Have to be prepared to fight the bureaucracy. They make mistakes, and usually against your interest (we won't pay because X). Complaining has always solved all issues for me, but it takes two weeks minimum to get an answer. If you didn't file everything correctly two weeks before you needed it, you might go half a month with no money until it resolves. Unless you show up at the office crying. Then they'll help you on the spot. Information doesn't flow between departments; You have to provide everything any department asks regardless if they have your info elsewhere in the system. Often they require you apply for a different benefit first, even if everybody knows you don't qualify; They require the rejection to proceed. Add another two weeks.
And the real bummer: - If you work, everything stops. So you can't work part-time. You have to earn at least as much as the welfare for working to make any economic sense. It's annoying. I'd like to work occasionally, but there's no point. The choice is between doing nothing and getting X, or spending all your time and energy working 8 hours a day, five days a week and getting X+1. Some people go crazy without jobs; I'm creative and self-driven so I make all kinds of stuff by myself. It's pretty neat.
And there's always cash. What they can't track they can't take away... Gifts best given in cash. Unused budget best withdrawn from an ATM and stashed in the matress. God UBI would do so much good here. People stuck in this "welfare trap" could actually work a little to improve their standing.
It is extremely capitalist with classical hierarchies of business ownership. High tax, free healthcare and free schooling does not make a country even remotely socialist.
Similarily for capitalism-socialism. It is a spectrum. The United States represents one extreme, where something like, I don't know, North Korea maybe represents the other. And Finland is somewhere in-between.
Take, for example, a country where the majority of things are privately run but are heavily taxed by the government. Is that more capitalist or socialist than a country where most of the economy is run by the government, but the remaining private businesses pay little to no taxes?
Or a country where one party owns everything but pretends to act on behalf of the workers, as opposed to a country where everyone is a business owner? Or a country that has little labor regulation but a strong social safety net, versus a country with weak social welfare but strict labor regulation?
The whole point of reformist socialism is that you should not try to get there in a single giant leap, but step by step, with the fully socialist society more of a Platonic ideal: There'll likely always be a next thing to fix.
Austria having free education does not make it socialist - but it makes it more socialist.
If Bernie Sanders had his way[1] and this was implemented in the US, the country would become more socialist.
[1] https://berniesanders.com/issues/corporate-accountability-an...
But no: socialism by the most agreed on definitions in the rest of the world needs some sort of wealth cap that Finland has not.